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Utah and teachers
- Thread starter Asterus
- Start date
JoeSparky
Centurion
imported post
Asterus wrote:
Utah will recognize ANY properly issued concealed carry permit BUT, and it is a big but, Federal law ONLY allows those with permits issued by the state in which the school is located to carry in K-12 type schools (1000 feet from the property)
As for PUBLIC schools, the schools can take NO action against an individual (employee or not) with a concealed carry permit for carrying in/on school grounds or buildings!
Little quirk.... since Utah permits ALLOW concealment but don't require it, you can legally OPEN CARRY in a school with your UTAH permit.
edited to change first line of response for better clarification!
Asterus wrote:
ANYONE with a UTAH concealed firearms permit can carry in a UTAH public school!
Utah will recognize ANY properly issued concealed carry permit BUT, and it is a big but, Federal law ONLY allows those with permits issued by the state in which the school is located to carry in K-12 type schools (1000 feet from the property)
As for PUBLIC schools, the schools can take NO action against an individual (employee or not) with a concealed carry permit for carrying in/on school grounds or buildings!
Little quirk.... since Utah permits ALLOW concealment but don't require it, you can legally OPEN CARRY in a school with your UTAH permit.
edited to change first line of response for better clarification!
imported post
Thank you for the information. I was wondering when this was first permitted. I'm currently in a discussion with a friend about school shootings. They brought up the following incidents and I was trying to find out if they were before or after teachers started being allows to CCW and if there were any extenuating circumstances.
Taylorsville, Utah 5/14/96. 1 student killed by suicide, 1 school bus driver wounded.
Davis County, Utah 2/?/98. Students held at gunpoint 4 hours, 1 student wounded.
Salt Lake City, Utah 10/12/01. 1 student killed.
Taylorsville, Utah 11/7/2001. 1 student killed.
Thank you for the information. I was wondering when this was first permitted. I'm currently in a discussion with a friend about school shootings. They brought up the following incidents and I was trying to find out if they were before or after teachers started being allows to CCW and if there were any extenuating circumstances.
Taylorsville, Utah 5/14/96. 1 student killed by suicide, 1 school bus driver wounded.
Davis County, Utah 2/?/98. Students held at gunpoint 4 hours, 1 student wounded.
Salt Lake City, Utah 10/12/01. 1 student killed.
Taylorsville, Utah 11/7/2001. 1 student killed.
Kevin Jensen
State Researcher
imported post
Someone (Charles?) please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have read in the archives of the Utah Legislative sessions, it seems that our preemption (76-10-500) was enacted sometime in the 90's. It did not specifically come out and say that persons with permit may carry in school, but to me it seemed implied.
The drama all began when Attorney General Mark Shurtleff issued a formal opinion in 2001 regarding firearms carried in "in any facility owned or operated by the state". In footnote 11 you can see that he included "elementary and secondary schools".
http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/AGOpinion2001-2.html
In July of 2002, the University of Utah filed an Amicus Brief in a U.S.District Court, challenging Shurtleff's opinion.
http://www.nacua.org/documents/UniversityofUtah_v._Shurtleff_AmicusBrief.pdf
From what I remember, the District Court threw out the case. In 2004, SB 48 was signed, and it included public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education into Utah's Uniform Firearm laws.
http://le.utah.gov/~2004/bills/sbillenr/sb0048.htm
The University of Utah then sued Mark Shurtleff in State Court. The Utah Supreme court sided with The Attorney General in September of 2006, and stated that the schools had no authority to ban firearms.
http://www.epi.soe.vt.edu/perspectives/policy_news/pdf/utahguncase%28090806%29.pdf
This is when it became definitive that persons with permits had the right to carry in Utah Schools. It started before this, but most will say 2006.
Someone (Charles?) please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have read in the archives of the Utah Legislative sessions, it seems that our preemption (76-10-500) was enacted sometime in the 90's. It did not specifically come out and say that persons with permit may carry in school, but to me it seemed implied.
The drama all began when Attorney General Mark Shurtleff issued a formal opinion in 2001 regarding firearms carried in "in any facility owned or operated by the state". In footnote 11 you can see that he included "elementary and secondary schools".
http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/AGOpinion2001-2.html
In July of 2002, the University of Utah filed an Amicus Brief in a U.S.District Court, challenging Shurtleff's opinion.
http://www.nacua.org/documents/UniversityofUtah_v._Shurtleff_AmicusBrief.pdf
From what I remember, the District Court threw out the case. In 2004, SB 48 was signed, and it included public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education into Utah's Uniform Firearm laws.
http://le.utah.gov/~2004/bills/sbillenr/sb0048.htm
The University of Utah then sued Mark Shurtleff in State Court. The Utah Supreme court sided with The Attorney General in September of 2006, and stated that the schools had no authority to ban firearms.
http://www.epi.soe.vt.edu/perspectives/policy_news/pdf/utahguncase%28090806%29.pdf
This is when it became definitive that persons with permits had the right to carry in Utah Schools. It started before this, but most will say 2006.
Pistol Pete Utah
Regular Member
imported post
Asterus wrote:
Asterus wrote:
I have had 2 teachers attend my CFP classes in the last 6 months. Good for them taking responsibility for their own safety.
utbagpiper
Banned
imported post
So far as I recall, Kevin has got the history down. I will add that State preemption was put on the books in response to Salt Lake City passing some anti-RKBA ordinances. That may have been a bit earlier than the 90s, but may well have been that late as the national anti-gun hysteria heated up.
As Kevin explained, preemption has been strengthened and improved a couple of times since then, most often in response to some tin-hat bureaucrat trying to impose his opinions as law or policy. I would say that 2006 is a fairly reasonable time frame for when public school teachers and other government employees in Utah really got full employment protection if they chose to carry on the job.
So far as I know, under current State of Utah personnel procedures, most State, county, city, school district, public college/university, and other government employees (other than federal of course) in Utah cannot be subjected to anti-gun employment policies. The most obvious exceptions, of course, would be prison guards, mental hospital employees, and court personnel working in areas where guns are specifically prohibited. But school employees in public K-12 schools, plus employees at public colleges and universities, and the gal sitting behind the counter at the DMV (something to consider about being polite), and most other government employees can legally carry a gun on the job with a permit and are protected against any adverse employment action if they choose to do so.
While members of the general public can, with a valid permit, CC or OC in school zones, on school grounds, and even in public schools themselves school districts tend to require employees to keep guns concealed. While this is probably, technically, a violation of State preemption, we've never pushed it because at a practical level, most everyone agrees that CC is more appropriate than OC for teachers and other school employees. We'd also hate to see anything codified with criminal penalties. Also at a practical level, given the anti-gun sentiment of the teachers' union, of too many teachers, and of many administrators, CC has significant personal advantages.
Private schools including Westminster and BYU can have whatever policy they like and both do prohibit guns using general trespassing laws. I know that the private K-12 school we patronize has no issue with the lawful possession of firearms and the last time I offered to arrange a carry permit class for anyone interested, all those with interest (a not insignificant number) already had their permits.
Of course, if we go back before the federal Gun Free School Zone Act of 1990, Utah had no laws against having guns on school grounds. A couple of the older high schools in the SL Valley, for example, have shooting ranges in their basements (long since turned into storage closets no doubt). While my high school in then moderately rural Utah did not have a range, it was not uncommon for students and teachers to have hunting rifles or shotguns in their cars in the parking lot in the 80s. One teacher had decorated his room partially with some of his mounted trophy deer heads. When a school musical production called for the use of a gun shot, I simply borrowed a handgun from a relative, bought some blanks, and brought them in to the teacher who needed them. And most all males from the age of 8 (when the joined cub scouts and got that first pocket knife) right up through teachers and administrators wouldn't think of leaving the house without some kind of pocket or utility knife on their person.
Oh how things have changed, and not always for the better.
Charles
So far as I recall, Kevin has got the history down. I will add that State preemption was put on the books in response to Salt Lake City passing some anti-RKBA ordinances. That may have been a bit earlier than the 90s, but may well have been that late as the national anti-gun hysteria heated up.
As Kevin explained, preemption has been strengthened and improved a couple of times since then, most often in response to some tin-hat bureaucrat trying to impose his opinions as law or policy. I would say that 2006 is a fairly reasonable time frame for when public school teachers and other government employees in Utah really got full employment protection if they chose to carry on the job.
So far as I know, under current State of Utah personnel procedures, most State, county, city, school district, public college/university, and other government employees (other than federal of course) in Utah cannot be subjected to anti-gun employment policies. The most obvious exceptions, of course, would be prison guards, mental hospital employees, and court personnel working in areas where guns are specifically prohibited. But school employees in public K-12 schools, plus employees at public colleges and universities, and the gal sitting behind the counter at the DMV (something to consider about being polite), and most other government employees can legally carry a gun on the job with a permit and are protected against any adverse employment action if they choose to do so.
While members of the general public can, with a valid permit, CC or OC in school zones, on school grounds, and even in public schools themselves school districts tend to require employees to keep guns concealed. While this is probably, technically, a violation of State preemption, we've never pushed it because at a practical level, most everyone agrees that CC is more appropriate than OC for teachers and other school employees. We'd also hate to see anything codified with criminal penalties. Also at a practical level, given the anti-gun sentiment of the teachers' union, of too many teachers, and of many administrators, CC has significant personal advantages.
Private schools including Westminster and BYU can have whatever policy they like and both do prohibit guns using general trespassing laws. I know that the private K-12 school we patronize has no issue with the lawful possession of firearms and the last time I offered to arrange a carry permit class for anyone interested, all those with interest (a not insignificant number) already had their permits.
Of course, if we go back before the federal Gun Free School Zone Act of 1990, Utah had no laws against having guns on school grounds. A couple of the older high schools in the SL Valley, for example, have shooting ranges in their basements (long since turned into storage closets no doubt). While my high school in then moderately rural Utah did not have a range, it was not uncommon for students and teachers to have hunting rifles or shotguns in their cars in the parking lot in the 80s. One teacher had decorated his room partially with some of his mounted trophy deer heads. When a school musical production called for the use of a gun shot, I simply borrowed a handgun from a relative, bought some blanks, and brought them in to the teacher who needed them. And most all males from the age of 8 (when the joined cub scouts and got that first pocket knife) right up through teachers and administrators wouldn't think of leaving the house without some kind of pocket or utility knife on their person.
Oh how things have changed, and not always for the better.
Charles
Kloutier
Regular Member
imported post
Sigh, I almost wished I lived in them times..... by lived I mean more than a child. I would love to experience an America that has not been crippled by Sensitivity and political correctness
Sigh, I almost wished I lived in them times..... by lived I mean more than a child. I would love to experience an America that has not been crippled by Sensitivity and political correctness