What would you do?

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[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Probably been done here already, oh well.
Say you are in a mini mart at the back of the store and you hear yelling and screaming. You turn to see what it is and see someone is pointing a gun at the cashier. The gunman is acting all wired. You have the upper hand, he doesn't see you. Now what.

Ok, lets change it some. Now he sees you and points it at you, he doesn't know you are armed. Now what.

#3 He just grabbed your wife or child, now what.
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You are justified in using deadly force we all know that. This is not intended to start the I'm rite and your wrong thing, play nice.
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armedman wrote:

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Probably been done here already, oh well.
Say you are in a mini mart at the back of the store and you hear yelling and screaming. You turn to see what it is and see someone is pointing a gun at the cashier. The gunman is acting all wired. You have the upper hand, he doesn't see you. Now what.

Ok, lets change it some. Now he sees you and points it at you, he doesn't know you are armed. Now what.

#3 He just grabbed your wife or child, now what.
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You are justified in using deadly force we all know that. This is not intended to start the I'm rite and your wrong thing, play nice.
[/font]

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#1. If BG gets his money with no shots fired, i would not shoot nor would i make it known that i was OC, i'd try to stay out of the way and un-noticed.If he shot, weather or not he hit his target, i would shoot. If he is willing to shoot at someone else, there is no garantee that he will not shoot at me on the way out. He has already shown no respect for life if he fires, what makes me think he will spare me in the end?

#2. I play the "scared victim" role until i have a 100%clear shot that i am comfortable with. When he drops his gaurd, or points at someone else, I take my shot.

#3. I beg and plead, empty my pockets, wallet, toss my keys towards him and try my damndest not to let him see my weapon. eventualy he will get distracted. (hopefully) he will look towards other screaming/pleading patrons, watch the door, go back to a register, whatever and i will be able to imediately stop the threat. that is ofcourse ifi can get a clear shot that i am 100% sure that will not hit my loved one or another bystander.

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armedman wrote:

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Probably been done here already, oh well.
Say you are in a mini mart at the back of the store and you hear yelling and screaming. You turn to see what it is and see someone is pointing a gun at the cashier. The gunman is acting all wired. You have the upper hand, he doesn't see you. Now what.

Ok, lets change it some. Now he sees you and points it at you, he doesn't know you are armed. Now what.

#3 He just grabbed your wife or child, now what.
[/font] [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]
You are justified in using deadly force we all know that. This is not intended to start the I'm rite and your wrong thing, play nice.
[/font]

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what would you do in all 3 situations?

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1/2/3: Take cover. Draw weapon. Take a shot if I have it.

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armedman wrote:

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Probably been done here already, oh well.
Say you are in a mini mart at the back of the store and you hear yelling and screaming. You turn to see what it is and see someone is pointing a gun at the cashier. The gunman is acting all wired. You have the upper hand, he doesn't see you. Now what.

Ok, lets change it some. Now he sees you and points it at you, he doesn't know you are armed. Now what.

#3 He just grabbed your wife or child, now what.
[/font] [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]
You are justified in using deadly force we all know that. This is not intended to start the I'm rite and your wrong thing, play nice.
[/font]

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My carry permit instructor posed scenario number 1 to us in class. After a few minutes discussion he then said only: 'What would you want your wife to do if she were the one in the back of the store rather than you?"

Well, that got us all thinking. Did we want our wives taking any risks beyond defending themselves?

He then continued, "Your wives and children want you to do, just about what you want your wives to do." Our wives want us to come home safely. Period.

He then explored the possibilities of previously un-noticed accomplice who ducked into the storage room behind you.

I'd like to think I'd be of help to those in need. But I'd also like to think I'm not going to risk leaving my wife a widow and my kids orphans trying to play hero. I'm reminded of the response supposedly given by a firearms training about what he'd have done had he been in Luby's Cafe's kitchen that fateful day, unseen and with a clear shot. He responded, "I'd have gotten out the back door if at all possible." When asked about the unarmed and defenseless patrons he would leave behind if he did that, he supposedly responded, "they all had the same chance to prepare and arm themselves that I had."

On the other hand, what if it were my wife or child who had some need to work the night shift at a mini-mart with a no-gun policy? I'd sure like to think some decent citizen would be willing to help out if he could. Plus, there would be a lot less violent crime in this nation if a few more violent criminals met a few more citizens carrying guns.

Short of my wife or kids being in harm's way, I'm going to do what I can to go home safely. I'm not going to risk getting shot--or going to prison--over some corporation's money.

But if it really looks like an innocent person is going to get harmed, I'm with mrh2008.

charles

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I did not put this out to be a test for anyone. We can all learn from each others viewpoints.
Once that trigger is pulled we don't get any take backs.
We know the," know your target and whats behind it".
"Be a good witness" etc
If it happens in real life it is so much different than this keyboard.
What are the statistics of shots fired and rounds hitting targets in a gun fight? We can go to the range everyday and practice and hit the 100%, then get involved in a shooting and it can really change.
They teach us that most likely the BG is hopped up on drugs and even when you put rounds in him it takes the body like 30 seconds to know its dead. 30 seconds is a long time for him to shoot back.
What if we misunderstood what was going on, we were on the phone, ipod, in la la land. We looked up saw the gun, so we unloaded rounds in the guy and it was an undercover LEO making an arrest?

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I think it all depends on the situation. In scenerio #1,the only way I would use my gun would be if i was 100% sure that it was a robbery. If this was the case yes i would draw my weapon and fire. Many would argue that why you would get in the way. How ever i think of the poor cashier. That is somebodies,mother,daughter,son,husband EX... if someone i knew was being robbed i would hope somebody would stand up and defend them.

Scenerio #2 I would play stupid and scared until hes distracted even the slightest minimum then i would react by using my firearm.'

In scenerio #3 it is clear if he grabbed one of my loved ones i would first wait 2 see if he gets distracted then take action,if this didnt happen I personally take one for the team and risk my life by praying that i could get a bullet in him b4 he does 2 me.

In all cases drawing and using my firearm is the last resort to any situation if and when a life is not at risk.

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My 'loved one' is armed. She'd just kill him and be done with it. She's like that. 'Pointing' (a gun)at me will get you/them killed. I'm like that.

Pointing a gun at somebody else might get them (the gunmen) shot... depends on the dynamic of the situation. I have no fantasies of playing hero. If I have a good shot... prob'ly.

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armedman wrote:

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Probably been done here already, oh well.
Say you are in a mini mart at the back of the store and you hear yelling and screaming. You turn to see what it is and see someone is pointing a gun at the cashier. The gunman is acting all wired. You have the upper hand, he doesn't see you. Now what.

Ok, lets change it some. Now he sees you and points it at you, he doesn't know you are armed. Now what.

#3 He just grabbed your wife or child, now what.
[/font] [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]
You are justified in using deadly force we all know that. This is not intended to start the I'm rite and your wrong thing, play nice.
[/font]

Click to expand...

You just outlined the typical scenario that every CCW instructor in AZ uses to demonstrate 'screwed up situations' to the class (except for the twist of pointing at you/grabbing a loved one.) Usually after you shoot this fictional gunman, he falls to the ground, and then you see his badge hanging from the lanyard around his neck.



With the twist added, however, that can go a few different ways.

Scenario 1: wait and see, hand on gun, buckle up kids!

Scenario 2: Hope like hell I've already drawn and have rounds through him before he pulls the trigger. If he's aiming at me, and I can do it, he's going to be a threat that I will be stopping.

Scenario 3: Single with no kids, so that's not an issue in my world. If it were, however, I'd first kick myself in the ass for not stopping it at scenario 2. From there, who knows.

All of the above includecalling out to the clerk for a cleanup on aisle three because I just shat all over the place.

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Scenario 1: As long as he doesn't see me, I will keep a low profile, and ready to respond at a moments notice. I may have my gun exposed or at a low ready -- if I surmise he intends to fire, or has taken a shot, I will make myself known to him with the business end of my .45.

Scenario 2: I hope to God that I am aware of what is going on before he even sees me and if the BG even moves his gun in my general direction, shoot to kill. You die in condition white.

Scenario 3: I prefer to lose my wallet or keys to a BG if a loved one is a hostage. But if I have a reasonable shot -- and that is very very iffy in this situation, I would take it. Otherwise, play victim, buy him off, and for God's sake keep my gun hidden, and only take a shot if I can seriously minimize the risk to said loved one. Hopefully said loved one is carrying something also and this scenario should never show itself.

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Hey Armedmanim still curious as to what you would do in theese situations, i think you should post what your reactions would be, seeing as you are the one that started the thread.

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mrh2008 wrote:

Hey Armedmanim still curious as to what you would do in theese situations, i think you should post what your reactions would be, seeing as you are the one that started the thread.

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He can't answer right now - He's busy running errands for the Feds.:lol:

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GWbiker wrote:

He can't answer right now - He's busy running errands for the Feds.:lol:

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Are you sure he's still at work? My mial came at about 11 today... :lol::lol:

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I was in a local gas station late one night after work. Some punk kids (around 14) came in a tried to do a beer run. The clerk jumped over the counter and locked them, and me in the store. While this was going on I was simply getting a fountain drink and watching. When they tried to run out and the door was locked on of them pulled a 12 in hunting knife and threatened the clerk. I simply set down my cup and lifted my shirt enough to exposr the P85 .9 mm on my hip. When the kid saw this he dropped the knife and the beer, and the clerk unlocked the door and every one went home alive that night. After I went over it in my head and wondered what would have happened if I would have had to shoot. I know all of the Sheriff Dep. out in my area who said it would have been justified, but is a knife vs. a gun a fair fight?



Normally I would just stay hidden and out of sight untill it became a problem or a safety concern.

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kashmirsmp wrote:

After I went over it in my head and wondered what would have happened if I would have had to shoot. I know all of the Sheriff Dep. out in my area who said it would have been justified, but is a knife vs. a gun a fair fight?

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I would have to say that in most cases, no, it is not a fair fight. BUT some criminals are so brazen, that they WILL take on a man with a gun, even if all they had was a knife. If you are SOO confident that you think thathaveing a knife will beat a guy with a guy, you are either highly trained, or you do not care enough to save your own life. i think both types are very dangerous.

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mrh2008 wrote:

I would have to say that in most cases, no, it is not a fair fight. BUT some criminals are so brazen, that they WILL take on a man with a gun, even if all they had was a knife. If you are SOO confident that you think thathaveing a knife will beat a guy with a guy, you are either highly trained, or you do not care enough to save your own life. i think both types are very dangerous.

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We did some drills while I was still in the service - knife vs rifle/pistol, 20 or so feet apart from one another- It was very hard to engage that knife guy before he got to you w/ that blade. Having your weapon a the 'ready' showed better results, but that is not going to work as a Civ.

Dont carry unless you are ready to grease someone- a knife, baseball bat, young kid or woman withsaid items...no different than a man w/ a gun. Dont fool yourself to think otherwise.

Do some drills w/ your carry piece - run some scenarios, especially those of you w/ no military experience. Your wife may laugh when she sees you doing some combat rolls in the back yard, but f-it...

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"but is a knife vs. a gun a fair fight" anything under 21 feet no it wouldn't be fair. and you would do better just to keep your gun covered. but over 21 feet yea you have at least have a chance to draw. They proved a guy with a knive can cross 21 feet in less then 1 second and your gun is holsered, you tell me.

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kashmirsmp wrote:

I was in a local gas station late one night after work. Some punk kids (around 14) came in a tried to do a beer run. The clerk jumped over the counter and locked them, and me in the store. While this was going on I was simply getting a fountain drink and watching. When they tried to run out and the door was locked on of them pulled a 12 in hunting knife and threatened the clerk. I simply set down my cup and lifted my shirt enough to exposr the P85 .9 mm on my hip. When the kid saw this he dropped the knife and the beer, and the clerk unlocked the door and every one went home alive that night. After I went over it in my head and wondered what would have happened if I would have had to shoot. I know all of the Sheriff Dep. out in my area who said it would have been justified, but is a knife vs. a gun a fair fight?

 

Normally I would just stay hidden and out of sight untill it became a problem or a safety concern.

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Now I'll ask you this. Do you think the knife would even have been drawn had you be OC rather than covered up? Would the beer run even have taken place to begin with? Again, all of these hypotheticals leave out one important aspect- OC changes people's plans quickly. This is still an OC board right?

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Dahwg wrote:

kashmirsmp wrote:

I was in a local gas station late one night after work. Some punk kids (around 14) came in a tried to do a beer run. The clerk jumped over the counter and locked them, and me in the store. While this was going on I was simply getting a fountain drink and watching. When they tried to run out and the door was locked on of them pulled a 12 in hunting knife and threatened the clerk. I simply set down my cup and lifted my shirt enough to exposr the P85 .9 mm on my hip. When the kid saw this he dropped the knife and the beer, and the clerk unlocked the door and every one went home alive that night. After I went over it in my head and wondered what would have happened if I would have had to shoot. I know all of the Sheriff Dep. out in my area who said it would have been justified, but is a knife vs. a gun a fair fight?



Normally I would just stay hidden and out of sight untill it became a problem or a safety concern.

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Now I'll ask you this. Do you think the knife would even have been drawn had you be OC rather than covered up? Would the beer run even have taken place to begin with? Again, all of these hypotheticals leave out one important aspect- OC changes people's plans quickly. This is still an OC board right?

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I technically was OCing but was turned at angle where it was harder to see since I was in a corner. Also I am a bigger guy so I dont think they could see around me as well. I know that some times just the sight of a guy OCing can change everything.

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If you're in a 'fair fight' your tactics suck. A knife is a weapon. I will assume the worst. If within' striking range... I'd smoke the knife wielder upon brandishment. That is... 'knife comes out... threatening manner... threats uttered... 'game over'.

Quoting Mahan: "Dont carry unless you are ready to grease someone- a knife, baseball bat, young kid or woman withsaid items...no different than a man w/ a gun. Dont fool yourself to think otherwise."

Sage advice.