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What would you do?

Sonora Rebel

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If you're not mentally prepared to kill... don't carry. Guns ain't a fashion statement.... or a political statement. Guns are tools. If there's any message connected... it's that the bearerhas the means toblow holes in you if circumstances warrant deadly force.

The will to actually do that is something else again.
 

mrh2008

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i never thought of a man with a knife like that... i guess it would be faster to use a knife then it would be to use agun in some cases. :?
 

acmariner99

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Sonora Rebel wrote:
If you're not mentally prepared to kill... don't carry. Guns ain't a fashion statement.... or a political statement. Guns are tools. If there's any message connected... it's that the bearerhas the means toblow holes in you if circumstances warrant deadly force.

The will to actually do that is something else again.
+1 -- well said, I carry because I am willing to do what is necessary to protect myself and those around me, there is no other reason. I pray I never have to take such action, and I would prefer to avoid or deescalate a situation before pulling my firearm in self defense becomes necessary. But if I see a weapon come out and intent behind it, gotta act -- cause I sure as heck don't want to go home in a body bag.

"The best weapon is between your ears -- God gave me one, and I'm gonna use it"
 

Mahan0331

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Sonora Rebel wrote:
Quoting Mahan: "Dont carry unless you are ready to grease someone- a knife, baseball bat, young kid or woman withsaid items...no different than a man w/ a gun. Dont fool yourself to think otherwise."

Sage advice.

Just throwin it out there man, take it easy....
 

Dahwg

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mrh2008 wrote:
i never thought of a man with a knife like that... i guess it would be fast to use a knife that it would be to use a gun in some cases. :?

A knife will make bigger holes in you than a gun thus kill you faster. Difference is a gun will reach out and touch you from a safer distance as opposed to a knife. Just as deadly. Knife=bang-bang, bang=dead attacker.
 

protector84

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Just about any tool though can be excellent for self-defense. The key is to create distance. Even if you have to use your fists to fight an attacker the goal should still be to fight just hard enough that you can re-create safe distance from your attacker. Knives are excellent for that as well. I'm not armed with a firearm 100% of the time but about 90%. The other times I have at least something on me of use, such as a taser, pepper spray can, or knife. While you have to be close to stab someone, that is generally not the goal of defensive knife carry. If a bad guy is threatening me and then sees me waving a knife at him in a slashing manner, it is going to be tough for him to get any closer. That is why it would be stupid for someone to try to get my gun out of my holster. The second they actually managed to get my gun in their hands, my knife would have already crossed their throat. Anyway, I'm eating dinner right now so I don't want to go into any more graphics but the point is made.
 

MK

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My son asked me about scenario (1) just last night and I've run by a few scenarios to myself hypothetically as I think everyone should. I've went over home defense with my wife and teenage son should they be at home during an imminent threat.I've also asked my family to keep bedroom doors locked when sleeping so no one can sneek into a room and catch someone completely vulnerable and sleeping. We've been burglarized before.

What I told my son for scenario (1) is that I would first decide whether an exit is safe and doable for me. I am under no obligation to try and save any strangerand would assess any situation seperately but my first and only true obligation is myself and personal companions. Still, I wouldn't rule out choosing force. Just remember that once you brandish your weapon, you could be mistaken by any other person or LEO as a threat as well.

As far as the hypothetical scenario that what you thought was a robber, was in reality, an undercover or off duty LEO, I feel its his obligation and just plain common sense to announce himself before or immediately upon his brandishing of a weaponat a store clerk. Hopefully, your initial reading of the situation is clear and accurate.

Its hard to say what one will do until the #$%@ hits the fan. I was chased and shot at with a rifle as a teenager and my body went into autopilot, piss your pants, hurt yourself, escape mode. Its a nightmare to remember.

I do know that in the given scenarios (2) and (3), its much more important to make your shot count than to be quick about it.I hope that I would act aggressively and decisively and maybe even announce the fictional presence of another threat to the criminal that is coming from behind him in order to get a second to duck away and ready my weapon.
 

crisisweasel

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What I hate about almost all of these scenarios is inevitably there's some twist or angle of looking at them where you shouldn't shoot. Very rarely does someone present a scenario where you don't shoot (because there's a hiding accomplice, or the guy's a cop, or the second coming of Christ and you just killed the messiah, or some equally ludicrous "catch"), and the bad guy ends up killing everyone in the place owing to your lack of action.

There is no situation that can ever arise where you will be sure to have every single fact, and time to consider every single fact. It is easy to say, "Well then don't shoot," in which case why not just get rid of your guns since there is no scenario in which you can be omnisciently certain to know every single angle of a situation.


I get the point about thinking and reasoning to the extent possible given the stress and time constraints of the situation, but there is a threshold you cross where it is time to stop reasoning and time to start acting -- a line you cross where legal ramifications and otherwise are tabled, and you've made the decision you are going to shoot. These scenarios almost suggest you should be hesitating right up to the point you pull the trigger, which strikes me as a recipe for disaster.


I get the idea that situations are complex and you ought to think them through, but so many of these scenarios are patronizing in the basic assumption that any time there's a guy with a gun pointed at another human being, probably there's some reason YOU SHOULD KNOW not to shoot that guy.


It's like people "don't get" that you can make mistakes and get sued to oblivion. I think everyone gets that. I think when you go to carry a gun you make a decision that that's a risk you're going to have to take.


I didn't like the overall message of my CCW classes, which stopped just short of saying, "Don't shoot anyone ever because there is obviously some fact of the situation you aren't aware of and besides you will be sued into poverty most certainly, if not wind up raped and alone in prison."


Not helpful.


I don't normally bring this up because people tend to read it as, "You're saying to just fire wildly at the slightest provocation," which is not what I'm saying. But to hesitate the whole way through the incident cannot possibly be the right way to handle it, and while people who present these scenarios say this isn't the point they're trying to make, this is what comes across. Why add these ludicrous "gotchas?" All they are going to do is pop into peoples mind at a moment where life and death are decided, "He's got a shotgun aimed at a clerk's face...WAIT. Maybe they're shooting a Steven Seagal film and none of this is REAL!"


You reason out the situation given the facts you've got. Then you decide. Then you single-mindedly go through with the decision and stop deliberating as you go into Condition Red.


[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]"Say you are in a mini mart at the back of the store and you hear yelling and screaming. You turn to see what it is and see someone is pointing a gun at the cashier. The gunman is acting all wired. You have the upper hand, he doesn't see you. Now what."

In my presently calm and comfy state, this sounds like a time to shoot. The idea that you ought to trust or take chances with the kind of degenerate who would point a gun at someone in that manner is unreasonable. Probably I'd tell him to drop his gun, and as he turned around at the sound of my voice, if I had a clean shot, I'd fire. I'd position myself first in such a way that I had a clean shot, without the cashier in the way ahead of time. It is unclear whether or not it makes any tactical or legal sense to give the guy a chance to surrender. If anyone has any ideas on this, I'd like to hear them. The guy could just as easily panic at the sound of my voice and start firing.

"Ok, lets change it some. Now he sees you and points it at you, he doesn't know you are armed. Now what."


He would know I was armed by that point. My gun would be out. If you mean he pointed it at me suddenly or first, surprising me, I'd probably just comply with his demands, unless I was reasonably certain I could duck for cover and draw my weapon. I wouldn't take that risk, however. Surprise seems important here.

"#3 He just grabbed your wife or child, now what."

At this point, the only relevant issue is getting a clean shot. If I couldn't, I wouldn't shoot. If I could, I would shoot until my wife and children were safe. If he ran, leaving the wife and child behind, I would not shoot as he ran.[/font]
 

IndianaBoy79

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I work at a service station. I certainly hope that if I'm ever in this situation (the guy behind the counter) that one of you would react if an opportunity presented itself. I trust you firing in my general direction more than I trust someone pointing a gun at me making demands.

That said, if I see a gun in my face, I plan to draw and shoot as I open the register....I've actually practiced this while working alone. Doubt it will happen...I have MANY customers who OC, including the local cop shop.
 

mFonz77

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
I work at a service station. I certainly hope that if I'm ever in this situation (the guy behind the counter) that one of you would react if an opportunity presented itself. I trust you firing in my general direction more than I trust someone pointing a gun at me making demands.

That said, if I see a gun in my face, I plan to draw and shoot as I open the register....I've actually practiced this while working alone. Doubt it will happen...I have MANY customers who OC, including the local cop shop.
I take it your company does not have a policy against employees carrying firearms while on duty? You are one lucky duck. I worked for a chain of C-stores in St. Louis and they prohibited employee carry. Had to make do with the unscrewed end of a windshield squeegee....
 
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protector84 wrote:
Just about any tool though can be excellent for self-defense. The key is to create distance. Even if you have to use your fists to fight an attacker the goal should still be to fight just hard enough that you can re-create safe distance from your attacker. Knives are excellent for that as well. I'm not armed with a firearm 100% of the time but about 90%. The other times I have at least something on me of use, such as a taser, pepper spray can, or knife. While you have to be close to stab someone, that is generally not the goal of defensive knife carry. If a bad guy is threatening me and then sees me waving a knife at him in a slashing manner, it is going to be tough for him to get any closer. That is why it would be stupid for someone to try to get my gun out of my holster. The second they actually managed to get my gun in their hands, my knife would have already crossed their throat. Anyway, I'm eating dinner right now so I don't want to go into any more graphics but the point is made.
protector84:

I have to disagree with your first statement "...fight just hard enough..."

I tend to think like Tim Larkin. The key is to shut off your attacker as quickly as possible. By any means necessary.

In a violent encounter, any other thought is counter-productive, and will get you hurt and/or killed. Remember that serious violent conflict rarely lasts more than five seconds.

I know, I'm rambling. It's what I do...
 

IndianaBoy79

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mFonz77 wrote:
IndianaBoy79 wrote:
I work at a service station. I certainly hope that if I'm ever in this situation (the guy behind the counter) that one of you would react if an opportunity presented itself. I trust you firing in my general direction more than I trust someone pointing a gun at me making demands.

That said, if I see a gun in my face, I plan to draw and shoot as I open the register....I've actually practiced this while working alone. Doubt it will happen...I have MANY customers who OC, including the local cop shop.
I take it your company does not have a policy against employees carrying firearms while on duty? You are one lucky duck. I worked for a chain of C-stores in St. Louis and they prohibited employee carry. Had to make do with the unscrewed end of a windshield squeegee....
No. In fact, I had to sign an agreement specifically NOT to carry a weapon of any kind the first day on the job. The fact is, most places I could get a job right now would require the same thing. I just think my right to life happens to be more important.

In AZ, does your employer's prohibition of firearms carry the weight of law?
 

Snakemathis

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
mFonz77 wrote:
IndianaBoy79 wrote:
I work at a service station. I certainly hope that if I'm ever in this situation (the guy behind the counter) that one of you would react if an opportunity presented itself. I trust you firing in my general direction more than I trust someone pointing a gun at me making demands.

That said, if I see a gun in my face, I plan to draw and shoot as I open the register....I've actually practiced this while working alone. Doubt it will happen...I have MANY customers who OC, including the local cop shop.
I take it your company does not have a policy against employees carrying firearms while on duty? You are one lucky duck. I worked for a chain of C-stores in St. Louis and they prohibited employee carry. Had to make do with the unscrewed end of a windshield squeegee....
No. In fact, I had to sign an agreement specifically NOT to carry a weapon of any kind the first day on the job. The fact is, most places I could get a job right now would require the same thing. I just think my right to life happens to be more important.

In AZ, does your employer's prohibition of firearms carry the weight of law?
Maybe not law other than trespassing, but lawsuit, yes. You signed a contract stating you wouldn't carry correct? While the most you will probably be stuck with from the DA is trespassing, the employer I believe (Correct me if I'm wrong) can sue you for breaking the contract. IANAL, just MHO.
 

utbagpiper

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Snakemathis wrote:
Maybe not law other than trespassing, but lawsuit, yes. You signed a contract stating you wouldn't carry correct? While the most you will probably be stuck with from the DA is trespassing, the employer I believe (Correct me if I'm wrong) can sue you for breaking the contract. IANAL, just MHO.
I'd be very surprised if an employer could ever successfully sue an employee over carrying a gun in contradiction of a signed contract, or even using it in self-defense.

The employer can fire the employee upon discovering the violation of the contract. But to sue him? Not likely. And trespass in the wake of a self-defense shooting? Maybe theoretically possible, but again, not likely.

And getting fired from a job, any job, is better than ending up dead or worse. Now, one should weigh the risk of being discovered with a weapon prohibited by company policy against the risk of needing that weapon and also with the difficulty of replacing the job if the weapon is discovered for any reason other than self-defense use. For a lot of jobs, I think the equation works out to not carrying, or carrying very deep concealed. But for some jobs, regular concealed carry may well be the obvious solution to that equation.

Charles
 

ixtow

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armedman wrote:
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Probably been done here already, oh well.
Say you are in a mini mart at the back of the store and you hear yelling and screaming. You turn to see what it is and see someone is pointing a gun at the cashier. The gunman is acting all wired. You have the upper hand, he doesn't see you. Now what.

Ok, lets change it some. Now he sees you and points it at you, he doesn't know you are armed. Now what.

#3 He just grabbed your wife or child, now what.
[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]
You are justified in using deadly force we all know that. This is not intended to start the I'm rite and your wrong thing, play nice.[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]
I've actually been in all 3 of these situations.

Fire at will. There is very little you can do to improve it once it gets that bad. Just do it and get it over with.
[/font]
 

We-the-People

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
mFonz77 wrote:
IndianaBoy79 wrote:
I work at a service station. I certainly hope that if I'm ever in this situation (the guy behind the counter) that one of you would react if an opportunity presented itself. I trust you firing in my general direction more than I trust someone pointing a gun at me making demands.

That said, if I see a gun in my face, I plan to draw and shoot as I open the register....I've actually practiced this while working alone. Doubt it will happen...I have MANY customers who OC, including the local cop shop.
I take it your company does not have a policy against employees carrying firearms while on duty? You are one lucky duck. I worked for a chain of C-stores in St. Louis and they prohibited employee carry. Had to make do with the unscrewed end of a windshield squeegee....
No. In fact, I had to sign an agreement specifically NOT to carry a weapon of any kind the first day on the job. The fact is, most places I could get a job right now would require the same thing. I just think my right to life happens to be more important.

In AZ, does your employer's prohibition of firearms carry the weight of law?

+ 1 BAZILLI GILLI WILLION

I was looking for a job when I found this one. (assuming legally carrying) otherwise it's "Tride by 12 or carried by 6??"
 

We-the-People

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As a vocal firearms advocate I am often asked "what if". They most often asked question is "what if you're in the mall and......" gunfire erruptsat some point not in my general area? You would be amazed at how many non carriers are flabberghasted when I say "exit in the opposite direction". The general public all seems to expect the carrying citizen to be Mr. Hero and go to the aid of the unarmed sheeple. That is NOT the reason to carry a firearm. We carry for SELF defense, the defense of our loved ones, and ONLY by close physical association unknown persons in our general vicinity. We are NOT the rescue squad, Charles Bronson, or any other hero. That said,

NOTE: Since I EXCLUSIVELY open carry, it is most likely that the perp will wait until I leave if it's a small store and he's cased it (seen me go in). However, shit happens so......

#1.....Due to due dilligence (situational awareness) I will know who is around me and could be a threat (or a backup like my wife). I go out the back quietly if possible. If not I would IMMEDIATELY take COVER if possible, CONCEALMENT if not, in a way which allowed me to observe. First priority getting out of view, second priority (simultaneously) drawing weapon. Constantly reassess situation and fire if necessary to protect MY life....POSSIBLY to engage the perp but not freaking likely unless he starts slinging lead. NOTE: In all likelyhood, the situation will drive my decisions as fast as I can make them and most likely the perp will be out of the store before I have secured my own safety and completed assessment. Less than 30 seconds after drawing he is most likely going to be GONE.

#2....I'm already headed to cover or concealment and a handgun against a moving target, while amped up on adrenaline (at least) makes the perps shots highly unlikey to find me. Better odds continuing to cover/concealment unless large space is involved (unlikely in a store). Drawing while moving, if I were still in the open I would lay down supressive fire until covered/concealled (I carry 41 rounds in two clips if carrying the auto, 5 rounds of buckshot if the Judge + a reload). The clerk should be scooting or ducking, if not, sorry, it's MY ASS on the line now. Once covered/concealed, I would take a defensive posture and let the shit head decide to come or leave, he will most likely leave. NOTE: The ODDS are in your favor unless you are the clerk in scenario 1 & 2.

#3..... Depends OF COURSE on the exact tactical situation.... am I standing right there, in the next isle, what?..... If right there, it's instant hand to hand combat with his weapon, eyes, genitals, and other soft spots the targets. He will forget my wife/child when faced with a maniac coming after him. He WILL die and it will hurt, it will probably hurt us both but it will hurt him more. If removed from the immediate situation and he's doing the stupid hollywood gun to her head thing I will (unless carrying the Judge as it is loaded with 000 buck) advance with a bead on him and he will flinch. My wife and I have rehearsed this and she will drop when he flinches and I will take the shot(s). We are both in agreement and, as I've said, have rehearsed it. If he has the gun towards me, and her hands are free, I will keep his attention and he'll get 5 rounds of 38 special from my "poor defenseless" wife, the first of which will change his focus from me and he will then be engaged by me. She knows to UNLOAD in him/her.

There are just too many variations to explain them all but if you are carrying you had best be doing AT LEAST mental rehearsals and discussions with your loved ones. It is far better to do physical rehearsals with simulated weapons AND KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS.

When the SHTF, if you have trained, your training will kick in and you will have the best chance of coming out with the least damage. With no training, GOOD LUCK.

PLEASE....do not think this is macho BS. It is the result of a career as a warrior and many many many hours of training, rehearsing, and training some more. It is the result of KNOWING the statistics of how life "works out", of knowing the capabilities of my weapons systems (which includes ME), of training WITH my wife, of working as a team. It's not that we're paranoid, milita brained, etc. just a way of life and as natural as breathing to us. For those of you whose wives think poorly of your carrying, you MUST expend the effort to attempt to get them involved.

Train like you plan to fight, fight like you trained. If you do the first part, your body will be on autopilot when the second part ever happens.'

Remember, in such a situation, the objective is to GO HOME SAFE (i.e. out the back door is perfectly acceptable). If that is not possible, go home substantially intact. But NEVER go home in a body bag without having inflicted serious damage upon the enemy. Also remember that BG's are NOT used to not beingin a position of unchallenged control when they are causing mahem. A crazedmantaking immediate offensive measures when up close will most certainly give you the element of surprise and the few fractions of a second necessary tochange his focus from how bad assed he is to how much pain he is in.

NO SHEEPLE
 
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We-the-People:

Interesting post. However, I would like to add one caveat:

No amount of preparation, no matter how "realistic," can truly prepare you for the time you are "under fire." At that point, just remember that you will only about 50% as good as you are on your *WORST* day of training.

Hence, lots of training is a good thing. For those who have been under fire (whether in the military or otherwise), it might be just a little better. Just remember that adrenaline does some interesting things to you.

Also, remember that there is a world of difference between "Shooting" and "Fighting."
 

We-the-People

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That's the main reason for the first priority being COVER or CONCEALMENT with drawing and or returning fire as secondary to FLIGHT in the first two scenarios. The instinct to survive will demand that you do what you need to escape harm. Fighting that instinct requires a lot of training that very few have.
 
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