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Thread: Stop and Identify

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    Local computer security expert investigates police practices


    An 'urban golf' outing raises civil liberties questions.


    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/418746_video.html

    97 Wn.2d 92, STATE v. WHITE
    http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/suprem...tm#097wn2d0092



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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    XD45PlusP wrote:
    Local computer security expert investigates police practices


    An 'urban golf' outing raises civil liberties questions.


    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/418746_video.html

    97 Wn.2d 92, STATE v. WHITE
    http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/suprem...tm#097wn2d0092

    This is great! This is really interesting in many ways.

    This article involves a group of very intelligent people. Dan Kaminsky, who was in the group and was also detained but not arrested, is the person who found the HUGE DNS flaw where an attacker could have royally f*cked up the entire internet. He was also able to show that the Sony Rootkit had infected more than 568,200 computers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Kaminsky

    Eric Rachner deals with computer security. This is really interesting to me because what he is doing, is what I am studying in college. I'm involved in the Computer Networking and Information Systems Security program at Clover Park Technical College in Lakewood, WA. It is absolutely amazing that Rachner was able to do the research on the technology that the Seattle PD uses in their dash cams and request the log files from the video recording system. I was expecting that he was going to subpoena the physical hardware that was in the police car and recover the video himself.

    A couple weeks ago, my instructor went over the DNS flaw that Dan Kaminsky found. I am going to show him this article.

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    This is great. I love it when the Police are forced to do their job correctly.
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    gsx1138 wrote:
    This is great. I love it when the Police are forced to do their job correctly.
    I completely agree.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Me too.

    Whole scale wrong doing in a whole department. These are the games they play. And is not isolated to this department.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Good on em for sticking to their guns.

    If LEAs are not willing to do whats necessary to enforce honesty and justice in their own practices, then citizens must be, and they need to make it hurt a lot when they do.

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    killchain wrote:
    gsx1138 wrote:
    This is great. I love it when the Police are forced to do their job correctly.
    I completely agree.

    + 2


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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quick question, at what point do you have to ID yourself? Can you still refuse at the station, in front of the judge, when do you HAVE to? The cop was givin permission to get his wallet, he could have opened it in view of the dash cam.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    amzbrady wrote:
    Quick question, at what point do you have to ID yourself? Can you still refuse at the station, in front of the judge, when do you HAVE to? The cop was givin permission to get his wallet, he could have opened it in view of the dash cam.
    When you are being cited for a civil infraction you must provide accurate identifying data for the citation.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Tawnos wrote:
    When you are being cited for a civil infraction you must provide accurate identifying data for the citation.
    But you do not have to provide ID. There is no requirement that you have identification on you. You just can't lie about who you are.

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    On traffic stops:

    46.61.021

    Any person requested to identify himself or herself to a law enforcement officer pursuant to an investigation of a traffic infraction has a duty to identify himself or herself and give his or her current address.
    Refuse to identify yourself in a criminal investigation typically results in a John Doe booking if identity can't be established.

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    heresolong wrote:
    Tawnos wrote:
    When you are being cited for a civil infraction you must provide accurate identifying data for the citation.
    But you do not have to provide ID. There is no requirement that you have identification on you. You just can't lie about who you are.
    Hmmm, I'm still out to lunch on this one .... show me the data that requires you to ID yourself. i.e. law or RCW

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    OK at first just reading what everyone wrote I was not too impressed. But after reading the whole story I eat my words! Awesome work by this guy and good follow thru! I wish more people had the balls (and capital) to back such decisions as this to make LEO's follow the laws as well.

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    Bersa.380 wrote:
    heresolong wrote:
    Tawnos wrote:
    When you are being cited for a civil infraction you must provide accurate identifying data for the citation.
    But you do not have to provide ID. There is no requirement that you have identification on you. You just can't lie about who you are.
    Hmmm, I'm still out to lunch on this one .... show me the data that requires you to ID yourself. i.e. law or RCW
    Only for civil infraction issuance, not for suspicion.
    7.80.050 is required to identify himself or herself to the enforcement officer by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth. Upon the request of the officer, the person shall produce reasonable identification, including a driver's license or identicard.

    A person who is unable or unwilling to reasonably identify himself or herself to an enforcement officer may be detained for a period of time not longer than is reasonably necessary to identify the person for purposes of issuing a civil infraction.

    Each agency authorized to issue civil infractions shall adopt rules on identification and detention of persons committing civil infractions.

    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Son_of_Perdition's Avatar
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    In the event that say I am walking down the street with my properly holstered gun and a smile on my face. Someone from the Brady bunch calls the police. Due to the horrific sight of a gun out in the open/holstered. Cops roll up and with anxious anger demand my ID. At what point ,by LAW, do I need to produce ID. Is the call to police about me enough, or does the LEO have to state that he needs it for an arrest related to other infractions?

    EDIT: Sorry I'm slow :? I need someone to draw me a picture.


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    With those facts, the arrest appears to have been illegal based on a 1982 Washington Supreme Court ruling, though a 2004 U.S. Supreme Court case makes the situation less clear-cut.
    Anyone know the case that made "stop-and-identify" illegal? Or the other one?



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    Demanding I.D. is a seizure. All seizures have to be supported by cause.

    examples, taking control of a person's I.D. turns a consentual contact into a seizure

    Retaining control of identification while verifying information that was given. See, e.g., State v. Thomas, 91 Wn. App. 195, 201, 955 P.2d 420, review denied, 136 Wn.2d 1030 (1998); State v. Dudas, 52 Wn. App. 832, 834, 764 P.2d 1012 (1988), review denied, 112 Wn.2d 1011 (1989).
    also restricting a person's movement turns an encounter into a seizure

    Use of coercive language to initiate contact. "Gentlemen, I'd like to speak with you, could you come to my car?" or "Can I talk to you guys for a minute?" is permissive. "Wait right here" is coercive and constitutes a seizure. State v. Barnes, 96 Wn. App. 217, 223, 978 P.2d 1131 (1999)
    These examples are from seach and seizure PDF files on the criminal justice website.

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    Nice work erps.
    What criminal justice website are you talking about? MRSC?

    [img]file:///I:/DOCUME%7E1/BOBBI&%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/img]From the police report:
    "Believing Mr. Rachner was asking permission to get his wallet (a common occurrence with intoxicated persons)..."
    What??!!
    Last time I asked to get my wallet I got grabbed and told "don't do that."

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Son_of_Perdition wrote:
    In the event that say I am walking down the street with my properly holstered gun and a smile on my face. Someone from the Brady bunch calls the police. Due to the horrific sight of a gun out in the open/holstered. Cops roll up and with anxious anger demand my ID. At what point ,by LAW, do I need to produce ID. Is the call to police about me enough, or does the LEO have to state that he needs it for an arrest related to other infractions?

    EDIT: Sorry I'm slow :? I need someone to draw me a picture.
    Don't have to carry I.D. there is no law that says you have to. Obstruction is a common bluff by police departments they have to give RAS or have PC to detain you.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Son_of_Perdition's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Son_of_Perdition wrote:
    In the event that say I am walking down the street with my properly holstered gun and a smile on my face. Someone from the Brady bunch calls the police. Due to the horrific sight of a gun out in the open/holstered. Cops roll up and with anxious anger demand my ID. At what point ,by LAW, do I need to produce ID. Is the call to police about me enough, or does the LEO have to state that he needs it for an arrest related to other infractions?

    EDIT: Sorry I'm slow :? I need someone to draw me a picture.
    Don't have to carry I.D. there is no law that says you have to. Obstruction is a common bluff by police departments they have to give RAS or have PC to detain you.
    Thank-you, good to know.

    On a side note. I had a question about the abbreviation "RAS". Do people in the know like police pronounce it "R, A, S" or as one word like RAZZ or RASS. And if it is one word. does the "S" sound like a "S" or a "Z"? I know this sounds like a dumb question but I like to notsound like a noob when talking to LEO's.

    Thanks in advance for the fallow up.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Don't abreviate when talking to LEO ( talk to them as little as possible ).
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    On a side note. I had a question about the abbreviation "RAS". Do people in the know like police pronounce it "R, A, S" or as one word like RAZZ or RASS.
    I wasn't familiar with the acronym RAS until I came to this website. The terms we used for the two levels of cause in Skagit County were reasonable suspicion and probable cause.

    Nice work erps. What criminal justice website are you talking about? MRSC?
    Here is a link with copies of the monthly Law Enforcement Digests that helps cops keep up on case law. Towards the bottom of the page is a PDF file on search and seizure law in Washington. It's a good reference.

    https://fortress.wa.gov/led/ledpage.html



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    I was curious what the 'A' stands for anyway in RAS? It seems like it's being used in place of 'reasonable suspicion'... but where does the 'A' come from?

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    Articuable
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    aahhh, it makes sense. Thanks!

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