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Stop and Identify

swatspyder

swatspyder

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University Place, Washington, USA
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XD45PlusP wrote:
Local computer security expert investigates police practices


An 'urban golf' outing raises civil liberties questions.


http://www.seattlepi.com/local/418746_video.html

97 Wn.2d 92, STATE v. WHITE
[url]http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/supreme/097wn2d/097wn2d0092.htm#097wn2d0092[/url]
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This is great! This is really interesting in many ways.

This article involves a group of very intelligent people. Dan Kaminsky, who was in the group and was also detained but not arrested, is the person who found the HUGE DNS flaw where an attacker could have royally f*cked up the entire internet. He was also able to show that the Sony Rootkit had infected more than 568,200 computers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Kaminsky

Eric Rachner deals with computer security. This is really interesting to me because what he is doing, is what I am studying in college. I'm involved in the Computer Networking and Information Systems Security program at Clover Park Technical College in Lakewood, WA. It is absolutely amazing that Rachner was able to do the research on the technology that the Seattle PD uses in their dash cams and request the log files from the video recording system. I was expecting that he was going to subpoena the physical hardware that was in the police car and recover the video himself.

A couple weeks ago, my instructor went over the DNS flaw that Dan Kaminsky found. I am going to show him this article.
 
FMCDH

FMCDH

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Good on em for sticking to their guns.

If LEAs are not willing to do whats necessary to enforce honesty and justice in their own practices, then citizens must be, and they need to make it hurt a lot when they do.
 
amzbrady

amzbrady

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Quick question, at what point do you have to ID yourself? Can you still refuse at the station, in front of the judge, when do you HAVE to? The cop was givin permission to get his wallet, he could have opened it in view of the dash cam.
 
T

Tawnos

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amzbrady wrote:
Quick question, at what point do you have to ID yourself? Can you still refuse at the station, in front of the judge, when do you HAVE to? The cop was givin permission to get his wallet, he could have opened it in view of the dash cam.
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When you are being cited for a civil infraction you must provide accurate identifying data for the citation.
 
H

heresolong

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Tawnos wrote:
When you are being cited for a civil infraction you must provide accurate identifying data for the citation.
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But you do not have to provide ID. There is no requirement that you have identification on you. You just can't lie about who you are.
 
E

erps

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On traffic stops:

46.61.021

Any person requested to identify himself or herself to a law enforcement officer pursuant to an investigation of a traffic infraction has a duty to identify himself or herself and give his or her current address.
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Refuse to identify yourself in a criminal investigation typically results in a John Doe booking if identity can't be established.
 
B

Bersa.380

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heresolong wrote:
Tawnos wrote:
When you are being cited for a civil infraction you must provide accurate identifying data for the citation.
Click to expand...
But you do not have to provide ID. There is no requirement that you have identification on you. You just can't lie about who you are.
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Hmmm, I'm still out to lunch on this one .... show me the data that requires you to ID yourself. i.e. law or RCW
 
B

brianstone1985

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OK at first just reading what everyone wrote I was not too impressed. But after reading the whole story I eat my words! Awesome work by this guy and good follow thru! I wish more people had the balls (and capital) to back such decisions as this to make LEO's follow the laws as well.
 
T

Tawnos

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Bersa.380 wrote:
heresolong wrote:
Tawnos wrote:
When you are being cited for a civil infraction you must provide accurate identifying data for the citation.
Click to expand...
But you do not have to provide ID. There is no requirement that you have identification on you. You just can't lie about who you are.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, I'm still out to lunch on this one .... show me the data that requires you to ID yourself. i.e. law or RCW
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Only for civil infraction issuance, not for suspicion.
7.80.050 is required to identify himself or herself to the enforcement officer by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth. Upon the request of the officer, the person shall produce reasonable identification, including a driver's license or identicard.

A person who is unable or unwilling to reasonably identify himself or herself to an enforcement officer may be detained for a period of time not longer than is reasonably necessary to identify the person for purposes of issuing a civil infraction.

Each agency authorized to issue civil infractions shall adopt rules on identification and detention of persons committing civil infractions.
 
Son_of_Perdition

Son_of_Perdition

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In the event that say I am walking down the street with my properly holstered gun and a smile on my face. Someone from the Brady bunch calls the police. Due to the horrific sight of a gun out in the open/holstered. Cops roll up and with anxious anger demand my ID. At what point ,by LAW, do I need to produce ID. Is the call to police about me enough, or does the LEO have to state that he needs it for an arrest related to other infractions?

EDIT: Sorry I'm slow :? I need someone to draw me a picture.
 
C

cynicist

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With those facts, the arrest appears to have been illegal based on a 1982 Washington Supreme Court ruling, though a 2004 U.S. Supreme Court case makes the situation less clear-cut.
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Anyone know the case that made "stop-and-identify" illegal? Or the other one?
 
E

erps

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Demanding I.D. is a seizure. All seizures have to be supported by cause.

examples, taking control of a person's I.D. turns a consentual contact into a seizure

Retaining control of identification while verifying information that was given. See, e.g., State v. Thomas, 91 Wn. App. 195, 201, 955 P.2d 420, review denied, 136 Wn.2d 1030 (1998); State v. Dudas, 52 Wn. App. 832, 834, 764 P.2d 1012 (1988), review denied, 112 Wn.2d 1011 (1989).
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also restricting a person's movement turns an encounter into a seizure

Use of coercive language to initiate contact. "Gentlemen, I'd like to speak with you, could you come to my car?" or "Can I talk to you guys for a minute?" is permissive. "Wait right here" is coercive and constitutes a seizure. State v. Barnes, 96 Wn. App. 217, 223, 978 P.2d 1131 (1999)
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These examples are from seach and seizure PDF files on the criminal justice website.
 
C

cynicist

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Nice work erps.
What criminal justice website are you talking about? MRSC?

moz-screenshot.png
From the police report:
"Believing Mr. Rachner was asking permission to get his wallet (a common occurrence with intoxicated persons)..."
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What??!!
Last time I asked to get my wallet I got grabbed and told "don't do that."
 
sudden valley gunner

sudden valley gunner

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Son_of_Perdition wrote:
In the event that say I am walking down the street with my properly holstered gun and a smile on my face. Someone from the Brady bunch calls the police. Due to the horrific sight of a gun out in the open/holstered. Cops roll up and with anxious anger demand my ID. At what point ,by LAW, do I need to produce ID. Is the call to police about me enough, or does the LEO have to state that he needs it for an arrest related to other infractions?

EDIT: Sorry I'm slow :? I need someone to draw me a picture.
Click to expand...
Don't have to carry I.D. there is no law that says you have to. Obstruction is a common bluff by police departments they have to give RAS or have PC to detain you.
 
Son_of_Perdition

Son_of_Perdition

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
Son_of_Perdition wrote:
In the event that say I am walking down the street with my properly holstered gun and a smile on my face. Someone from the Brady bunch calls the police. Due to the horrific sight of a gun out in the open/holstered. Cops roll up and with anxious anger demand my ID. At what point ,by LAW, do I need to produce ID. Is the call to police about me enough, or does the LEO have to state that he needs it for an arrest related to other infractions?

EDIT: Sorry I'm slow :? I need someone to draw me a picture.
Click to expand...
Don't have to carry I.D. there is no law that says you have to. Obstruction is a common bluff by police departments they have to give RAS or have PC to detain you.
Click to expand...

Thank-you, good to know.

On a side note. I had a question about the abbreviation "RAS". Do people in the know like police pronounce it "R, A, S" or as one word like RAZZ or RASS. And if it is one word. does the "S" sound like a "S" or a "Z"? I know this sounds like a dumb question but I like to notsound like a noob when talking to LEO's.

Thanks in advance for the fallow up.
 
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