what would you do in this case?

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Suburban78 wrote:

wrightme wrote:

Suburban78 wrote:

That's a completely different scenario. For one thing, every person has the legal right to EXPECT complete safety in their own home! Also in my own home I have 5 daughters and my wife to protect and with someone breaking in through a window would be shot no questions asked. Now in the OP scenario, your outside in a parking lotand the laws are different outside of your home at least here in colorado. So keep your questions reasonable and in context of the original question please.

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I have a legal Right to expect complete safety where I can legally be!

Did the OP specify legal jurisdiction restrictions?

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And I didn't say you don't, but the laws regarding a self-defense shootingare different out side of your home. THE RIGHT TO EXPECT COMPLETESAFETY IN YOUR OWN HOME come from legal working straight from colorado laws regarding selfprotection in your home and the MAKE MY DAY LAW.

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Yet that statement rests upon the specifics of different jurisdictions.
IMHO, it shouldn't. EVERY citizen of the United States should:
a)EXPECT to be able to travel unhindered by crime.
b)have an unalienable RIGHT to defend from crime, without 'duty to run away."

Laws that provide only defense when cowering in our homes are NOT fair to persons who practice lawful public conduct.

Prior to your "home defense" response, you posted:
Suburban78 wrote:

My first and foremost duty is to myself and family. Remember the key words in this situation, "UNAVOIDABLE AND IMMEDIATE". That's what a judge and jury will look at inthetrial that will follow a self-defense shooting.

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Where did you acquire the "unavoidable and immediate" 'key words' you introduced into discussion?

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Uh, lets see... Guess you don't do much reading. Ever heard of Rob Pincus, Mark Walters, Larry Pratt and many others... The Term "IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE" is not a legal term (yet) but is used in CCW carry classes and Self-Defense courses all across the US. It is used to clarify while training when the use of deadly force is legal. Although some states do not have a duty to retreat law, why would one just draw and shoot if there were any other alternative? Like I said before, It seems as though some are just waiting for the opportunity to use their sidearm. Now if I was such a dunce that I would have put myself into that type of position(OP scenario)then I would do what I had to! HUM, empty parking lot! Night! No one around! One Drunk Man Acting Crazy! How in the world could this Crazy even get close to you! Why would you even be in that parking lot! Anyway, the point is that EVERYONE would handle that scenario in their own way. I sure hope that if anyone with the BANG!"DROP THE KNIFE" attitude has a damn good attorney on retainer. If and when I ever have to point and shoot, it will be IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE and that should leave me without the cost and jeopardy of a trial to prove that I had NO OTHER OPTION.

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Suburban78 wrote:

Uh, lets see... Guess you don't do much reading. Ever heard of Rob Pincus, Mark Walters, Larry Pratt and many others... The Term "IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE" is not a legal term (yet) but is used in CCW carry classes and Self-Defense courses all across the US. It is used to clarify while training when the use of deadly force is legal. Although some states do not have a duty to retreat law, why would one just draw and shoot if there were any other alternative? Like I said before, It seems as though some are just waiting for the opportunity to use their sidearm. Now if I was such a dunce that I would have put myself into that type of position(OP scenario)then I would do what I had to! HUM, empty parking lot! Night! No one around! One Drunk Man Acting Crazy! How in the world could this Crazy even get close to you! Why would you even be in that parking lot! Anyway, the point is that EVERYONE would handle that scenario in their own way. I sure hope that if anyone with the BANG!"DROP THE KNIFE" attitude has a damn good attorney on retainer. If and when I ever have to point and shoot, it will be IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE and that should leave me without the cost and jeopardy of a trial to prove that I had NO OTHER OPTION.

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THus, it carries no wait.

Speaking of reading, in NV, there is no "duty to retreat." Other jurisdictions may differ.

The OP is a simple troll. Responses may differ.
SD should be allowed when attacked. Good SD courses should teach local statute. The rest is tactics. Further, there are PLENTY of threads here (and in other forums) that point out one simple truth; a CCW class is NOT necessarily a good reference to what is lawful. I have seen too many that teach that once a concealed firearm permit is gained, that open carry is subsequently illegal.

As for the "Immediate and Unavoidable," it only holds weight if applicable statute of a specific jurisdiction spells it out like that. It may be prudent, but that does not make it necessary.

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Well he said the situation was in a jack in the box parking lot. I don't really know how that would consist of the individual lacking situation awareness if he's coming out of the restaurant to get to his car, to encounter an intoxicated man with a knife.

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Tony Santiago wrote:

imagine you are out in public, and an intoxicated man is very unruly, disorderly, and acting out of line. he gets a little close to you, and suddenly brandishes a knife for whatever reason. imagine he simply does not see your firearm at this point.

what would you do upon him brandishing a knife if he's within 10 feet of you? would you draw down on him and tell him to drop his weapon? or would you simply draw and shoot right away, hoping he doesnt lunge after you with his knife? (considering you dont know exactly how intoxicated he really is)

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Shoot him as you are backing up....until he drops the knife....or drops himself. Why is this hard?

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back away if you canprobably best to not turn your back on said intoxicated person,if the person has a knife who's to say (s)he doesnt also have a firearm?

while backing up,weak hand calling 911(or turn on your recorder,you'll want evidence backing your story up if shtf),shooting hand on gun,but not drawing unless the intoxicated person initiates an attack.keep 911 on the phone until LEO's arrive,make sure they know you are armed before they get there.

that way it makes the presenceof your firearm(s)known,which could deter the attack,LEO's would be on the way,and 911 would be recording everything just in case you were required to shoot,and if you do have to shoot...your hand is already on the firearm,saving precious time in case you are actually attacked.

just cuz many of us arent required to retreat due to state law...doesnt mean that we shouldnt retreat when possible.

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lil_freak_66 wrote:

just cuz many of us arent required to retreat due to state law...doesnt mean that we shouldnt retreat when possible.

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Excellent point, LF66.

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lil_freak_66 wrote:

back away if you canprobably best to not turn your back on said intoxicated person,if the person has a knife who's to say (s)he doesnt also have a firearm?

while backing up,weak hand calling 911,shooting hand on gun,but not drawing unless the intoxicated person initiates an attack.keep 911 on the phone until LEO's arrive,make sure they know you are armed before they get there.

that way it makes the presenceof your firearm(s)known,which could deter the attack,LEO's would be on the way,and 911 would be recording everything just in case you were required to shoot,and if you do have to shoot...your hand is already on the firearm,saving precious time in case you are actually attacked.

just cuz many of us arent required to retreat due to state law...doesnt mean that we shouldnt retreat when possible.

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I would agree with all of this except for the 911 part. I would hold off on that until I knew that being distracted by making the call would not increase the danger to myself.

The last sentence is wisdom. Not being required to retreat does not mean not being allowed to retreat.

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Tony Santiago wrote:

imagine you are out in public, and an intoxicated man is very unruly, disorderly, and acting out of line. he gets a little close to you, and suddenly brandishes a knife for whatever reason. imagine he simply does not see your firearm at this point.

what would you do upon him brandishing a knife if he's within 10 feet of you? would you draw down on him and tell him to drop his weapon? or would you simply draw and shoot right away, hoping he doesnt lunge after you with his knife? (considering you dont know exactly how intoxicated he really is)

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Ten feet away, with a knife? No question, I would shoot. A person can move 18-20 feet in about 1.5 seconds, so ten feet is far too close for comfort. At that distance, he could stab you before you could draw, potentially. Personally, I would draw before he got that close, if he seemed at all threatening, especially in a secluded area.

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Remember in the OP the distance away from the drunk with a knife was 10 feet.

Ok... measure out 10 feet in your living room or hallway. How fast can you cover that distance? What will it take? 3 steps? Can anyone draw and fire before a person takes 3 steps?

Also... a person moving forward can always move faster than a person backing up. Again... how fast can a person with a knife cover the distance of even 5 steps (assuming you are backing up)? Could anyone draw and fire in that short amount of time?

The reason I'm asking these questions is..... if someone with a knife is only 10 feet away you are already in deep.. deep.. really deep!... crap.

That isn't to say the situation couldn't be talked out of... or even escaped from... or, at the worst, defended from.. the whole point is to not let any weirdo, drunk, agitated person, or even suspicious person, get anywhere near you in the first place. And the only way to do that is to actively be aware and intentionally look for those whackos so they can be avoided...

Yeah, I know, we all suffer from the occasional brain fart and our awareness level is somewhere around absolutely zero... what to do then? Do the best you can to talk, escape, or defend... but expect not to come out of it unhurt because an attacker with a knife or club from 21 feet away is capable of closing that distance and inflicting harm before defending with a gun can be effective.

Now bear in mind that those who can draw and shoot within the 1.5 second time frame it takes for an attacker to cover 21 feet are those who regularly practice drawing and shooting.... How often do YOU practice?

See:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

Edited to add:

LadyGreenEyes beat me to it about distance and time.... good for you!

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Don't forget, in the scenario, the guy is drunk. While a man with a knife within 10 feet, drunk or not, is dangerous, a drunk man is not effective. You are right that SA should have kept you out of the situation in the first place. But, I still think that retreating from the drunk is the best course of action.

You can't count on it, but the drunk is likely to end up on his ass under his own power.

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eye95 wrote:

Don't forget, in the scenario, the guy is drunk. While a man with a knife within 10 feet, drunk or not, is dangerous, a drunk man is not effective. You are right that SA should have kept you out of the situation in the first place. But, I still think that retreating from the drunk is the best course of action.

You can't count on it, but the drunk is likely to end up on his ass under his own power.

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we have failed to take into consideration HOW drunk this person may be.

so drunk that he is more likely to fall on himself,therefore stabbing himself instead of you?

or just barely over legal limit.

or perhaps even under legal limit.

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Bikenut wrote:

Remember in the OP the distance away from the drunk with a knife was 10 feet.

Ok... measure out 10 feet in your living room or hallway. How fast can you cover that distance? What will it take? 3 steps? Can anyone draw and fire before a person takes 3 steps?

Also... a person moving forward can always move faster than a person backing up. Again... how fast can a person with a knife cover the distance of even 5 steps (assuming you are backing up)? Could anyone draw and fire in that short amount of time?

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That's why the move to create distance must be decisive and immediate. Once the situation is comprehended, it is time to leave. Abruptly. Surprisingly. Immediately. Rudely.

Don't forget that the knife holding drunk in the scenario has not yet shown he wants to kill you. And he may be so drunk he couldn't hurt a flea. And if you're wrong about the "knife" being a knife, you may have to become acquainted with the reality of HPCSD[suP]©[/suP].

Remember: Shoot in haste, repent in leisure.

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lil_freak_66 wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Don't forget, in the scenario, the guy is drunk. While a man with a knife within 10 feet, drunk or not, is dangerous, a drunk man is not effective. You are right that SA should have kept you out of the situation in the first place. But, I still think that retreating from the drunk is the best course of action.

You can't count on it, but the drunk is likely to end up on his ass under his own power.

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we have failed to take into consideration HOW drunk this person may be.

so drunk that he is more likely to fall on himself,therefore stabbing himself instead of you?

or just barely over legal limit.

or perhaps even under legal limit.

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If we are told in the scenario that he is drunk, we are being told that we know he is drunk (or why mention it?), so the logical conclusion is that he is visibly drunk. By the time someone is visibly drunk, he is ineffective against a sober person. Still dangerous, just ineffective.

I don't think he's covering that 10 feet before I can make a sudden move to which he will surely fail to respond effectively.

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eye95 wrote:

If we are told in the scenario that he is drunk, we are being told that we know he is drunk (or why mention it?), so the logical conclusion is that he is visibly drunk. By the time someone is visibly drunk, he is ineffective against a sober person. Still dangerous, just ineffective.

I don't think he's covering that 10 feet before I can make a sudden move to which he will surely fail to respond effectively.

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E95, you're just not....a shoot first kinda guy.

That's laudable.

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Well, fresh in my mind, as I just took the class for my CC permit. Was reading about that last night, before the class, too. Ten feet is NO space. Too many people are too unaware of what is happening around them. I am certain that, more than once, simply noticing people avoided a conflict. I am sure others have seen suspicious types watching, that moved away as though seeking an easier target. Gun or no gun (and I encourage the former!), if a person is aware, and looks confident, many scary situations can be avoided. Most attackers want a helpless victim, and a sneak attack. Be alert, and walk tall, and you will be a lot safer.

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Tony Santiago wrote:

imagine you are out in public, and an intoxicated man is very unruly, disorderly, and acting out of line. he gets a little close to you, and suddenly brandishes a knife for whatever reason. imagine he simply does not see your firearm at this point.

what would you do upon him brandishing a knife if he's within 10 feet of you? would you draw down on him and tell him to drop his weapon? or would you simply draw and shoot right away, hoping he doesnt lunge after you with his knife? (considering you dont know exactly how intoxicated he really is)

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Start walking away, keep an eye on him and look for friends. Cross the street. Do whatever you have to to LEAVE the situation and put dirt between you and him.

He's drunk after all. You have the advantage of being sober, in control of your wits and are armed. He might mistake you for someone he doesn't like or had a bad dealing with. Obviously, the mere fact that he pulled the knife tells you he's not driving with a full load of cheese.

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I have 4 four year olds. If my children are with me, I have them move away but I stand my ground betweenBG and my family until they are safely away.

If I'm alone, I put distance between the guy with the knife and my self but stick around to observe in case he actually had bad intent and chooses another victim.

In either case Iwould prepare to draw.

Heck, the guy could have found a knife on the ground, or maybe he was trying to get a splinter out of his hand with it....cleaning his fingernailsI knowyou said brandishing... but you also said drunk.I know it's only 10 feet but in your scenario, I'm not yet certain this guy has bad intent.

I'm one of those who is prepared to defend self and others but would be just fine if the need never arises. I don't want to take another's life.. even a BG.

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1FASTC4 wrote:

I have 4 four year olds. If my children are with me, I have them move away but I stand my ground betweenBG and my family until they are safely away.

If I'm alone, I put distance between the guy with the knife and my self but stick around to observe in case he actually had bad intent and chooses another victim.

In either case Iwould prepare to draw.

Heck, the guy could have found a knife on the ground, or maybe he was trying to get a splinter out of his hand with it....cleaning his fingernailsI knowyou said brandishing... but you also said drunk.I know it's only 10 feet but in your scenario, I'm not yet certain this guy has bad intent.

I'm one of those who is prepared to defend self and others but would be just fine if the need never arises. I don't want to take another's life.. even a BG.

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come to think of it...i do see alot of people doing that,heck i do it from time to time.

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eye95 wrote:

While a man with a knife within 10 feet, drunk or not, is dangerous, a drunk man is not effective.

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Gotta call you on this one ... a drunk can be very effective with a knife. Within 21' is considered to be the danger zone that is instructed in all police and security training (step and a half). The OP did not specify "staggering drunk" simply visiblydrunk and I have seen visible drunks perform feats of dexterity (waited tables in a bar during college.) As alcohol lowers inhibitions, I would consider a drunk man to be extremely dangerous ... they are that much closer to rage and have fewer inhibitions against violence.

Personally, I would assume a defensive position (hand on pistol, weak hand up in front, strong side foot back, balanced on balls of feet) and say loudly, "Stop, do not come any closer or I will be forced to shoot you." Remember, I have physical limitations that will not allow me to move fast at times, so Ican be"trapped" when a drunk or BG get's within 21' of me.