what would you do in this case?

imported post

Tony Santiago wrote:

imagine you are out in public, and an intoxicated man is very unruly, disorderly, and acting out of line. he gets a little close to you, and suddenly brandishes a knife for whatever reason. imagine he simply does not see your firearm at this point.

what would you do upon him brandishing a knife if he's within 10 feet of you? would you draw down on him and tell him to drop his weapon? or would you simply draw and shoot right away, hoping he doesnt lunge after you with his knife? (considering you dont know exactly how intoxicated he really is)

Click to expand...

From:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com

bran·dishtr.v. bran·dished, bran·dish·ing, bran·dish·es
1. To wave or flourish (a weapon, for example) menacingly.

2. To display ostentatiously. See Synonyms at flourish.n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.

If the fellow is "brandishing" then he is NOT cleaning his fingernails.

Methinks there are many who do not realize just how quickly a man, drunk or not, can cover a mere 10 feet and be right up where you can count his nose hairs and smell what he ate or drank last.

Perhaps a situation like that can be talked out of, or escaped from, or successfully defended from.... but a lapse of situational awareness allowed that situation to happen in the first place. And the time to start talking your way out... and escaping your way out... was when the dodgy looking drunk (and a drunk qualifies as "dodgy" to me) was 30 feet or more away.

If awareness has failed and the drunk is 10 feet away "brandishing" a knife the instant it is obvious the drunk intends harm is the time to move off the "X" to one side or the other... continue moving to create distance while drawing as verbal skills are employed to warn the now assailant you will defend yourself... and hope the gun won't need to be used while being prepared to immediately use it if the drunk's next actions warrant that use.

Please understand that anyone, including a drunk, who is "brandishing" a knife at a mere 10 feet away... is assaulting you and is already an assailant.

From:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com

as·sault n.

3. Law
a. An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
b. The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.

imported post

okboomer wrote:

eye95 wrote:

While a man with a knife within 10 feet, drunk or not, is dangerous, a drunk man is not effective.

Click to expand...

Gotta call you on this one ... a drunk can be very effective with a knife. Within 21' is considered to be the danger zone that is instructed in all police and security training (step and a half). The OP did not specify "staggering drunk" simply visiblydrunk and I have seen visible drunks perform feats of dexterity (waited tables in a bar during college.) As alcohol lowers inhibitions, I would consider a drunk man to be extremely dangerous ... they are that much closer to rage and have fewer inhibitions against violence.

Personally, I would assume a defensive position (hand on pistol, weak hand up in front, strong side foot back, balanced on balls of feet) and say loudly, "Stop, do not come any closer or I will be forced to shoot you." Remember, I have physical limitations that will not allow me to move fast at times, so Ican be"trapped" when a drunk or BG get's within 21' of me.

Click to expand...

The man is already too close. I won't issue a warning. My first instinct remains that I will try to get away. I still contend that a visible drunk will not be nearly as effective coming after me as the sober me would be effective in eluding him. If the attempt to escape fails, it will surely have purchased time, but likely not enough time to warn, I would shoot him without warning.

BTW, drunks are not effective at reacting. When you see a drunk seeming to be effective, he simply has practiced motor skills many times while drunk, and can repeat that action while under the influence. If a drunk encounters a situation involving quick decision-making and sudden action, he won't make those decisions well and the motor skills involved in reacting will not be practiced and will be horribly executed. That's why drunks can--and can't--drive. They can put themselves on auto-pilot and get home, time and again, without incident. Introduce a few variables, and you have a wreck.

imported post

Suburban78 wrote:

Uh, lets see... Guess you don't do much reading. Ever heard of Rob Pincus, Mark Walters, Larry Pratt and many others... The Term "IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE" is not a legal term (yet) but is used in CCW carry classes and Self-Defense courses all across the US. It is used to clarify while training when the use of deadly force is legal. Although some states do not have a duty to retreat law, why would one just draw and shoot if there were any other alternative? Like I said before, It seems as though some are just waiting for the opportunity to use their sidearm. Now if I was such a dunce that I would have put myself into that type of position(OP scenario)then I would do what I had to! HUM, empty parking lot! Night! No one around! One Drunk Man Acting Crazy! How in the world could this Crazy even get close to you! Why would you even be in that parking lot! Anyway, the point is that EVERYONE would handle that scenario in their own way. I sure hope that if anyone with the BANG!"DROP THE KNIFE" attitude has a damn good attorney on retainer. If and when I ever have to point and shoot, it will be IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE and that should leave me without the cost and jeopardy of a trial to prove that I had NO OTHER OPTION.

Click to expand...

He has already committed "assault with a deadly weapon and/or intent to kill". He exposed the knife, therefore I need no other option especially since he's so close. Lawyer on retainer, oh please? Get the behind me you liberal POS You are a sheeple in Guard dog country.

imported post

KansasMustang wrote:

Suburban78 wrote:

Uh, lets see... Guess you don't do much reading. Ever heard of Rob Pincus, Mark Walters, Larry Pratt and many others... The Term "IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE" is not a legal term (yet) but is used in CCW carry classes and Self-Defense courses all across the US. It is used to clarify while training when the use of deadly force is legal. Although some states do not have a duty to retreat law, why would one just draw and shoot if there were any other alternative? Like I said before, It seems as though some are just waiting for the opportunity to use their sidearm. Now if I was such a dunce that I would have put myself into that type of position(OP scenario)then I would do what I had to! HUM, empty parking lot! Night! No one around! One Drunk Man Acting Crazy! How in the world could this Crazy even get close to you! Why would you even be in that parking lot! Anyway, the point is that EVERYONE would handle that scenario in their own way. I sure hope that if anyone with the BANG!"DROP THE KNIFE" attitude has a damn good attorney on retainer. If and when I ever have to point and shoot, it will be IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE and that should leave me without the cost and jeopardy of a trial to prove that I had NO OTHER OPTION.

Click to expand...

He has already committed "assault with a deadly weapon and/or intent to kill". He exposed the knife, therefore I need no other option especially since he's so close. Lawyer on retainer, oh please? Get the behind me you liberal POS You are a sheeple in Guard dog country.

Click to expand...

So, would you shoot the drunk with the knife in the given scenario, KM?

If so, what is your articulation of the basis for doing so, given the scenario's parameters? If not, what would you do?

imported post

HankT wrote:

KansasMustang wrote:

Suburban78 wrote:

Uh, lets see... Guess you don't do much reading. Ever heard of Rob Pincus, Mark Walters, Larry Pratt and many others... The Term "IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE" is not a legal term (yet) but is used in CCW carry classes and Self-Defense courses all across the US. It is used to clarify while training when the use of deadly force is legal. Although some states do not have a duty to retreat law, why would one just draw and shoot if there were any other alternative? Like I said before, It seems as though some are just waiting for the opportunity to use their sidearm. Now if I was such a dunce that I would have put myself into that type of position(OP scenario)then I would do what I had to! HUM, empty parking lot! Night! No one around! One Drunk Man Acting Crazy! How in the world could this Crazy even get close to you! Why would you even be in that parking lot! Anyway, the point is that EVERYONE would handle that scenario in their own way. I sure hope that if anyone with the BANG!"DROP THE KNIFE" attitude has a damn good attorney on retainer. If and when I ever have to point and shoot, it will be IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE and that should leave me without the cost and jeopardy of a trial to prove that I had NO OTHER OPTION.

Click to expand...

He has already committed "assault with a deadly weapon and/or intent to kill". He exposed the knife, therefore I need no other option especially since he's so close. Lawyer on retainer, oh please? Get the behind me you liberal POS You are a sheeple in Guard dog country.

Click to expand...

So, would you shoot the drunk with the knife in the given scenario, KM?

If so, what is your articulation of the basis for doing so, given the scenario's parameters? If not, what would you do?

Click to expand...

He just articulated it, oh obtuse one.

imported post

People continue to mention situational awareness, however, there are certain circumstances where, while even using your mental awareness and alertness, you could find yourself in that situation. According to the OP, it's in a jack in the box parking lot, late at night.

You could easily have just exited out of the door of the restaurant, and found yourself in the presence of this man who had just come around the corner. Many scenarios I could think of where your awareness level wouldn't play a factor at all. According to the OP, you don't notice him until he's 10 feet from you. Maybe he came around the corner. Maybe you went around a corner. Maybe he popped out from behind his car. There's a lot of reasons why you may not have seen him until that point.

I'm pretty sure the fact is, you've encountered this man at this point. He's 10 feet away from you, and has brandished a knife *at you* in a threatening manner. If I were to find myself in that situation, the first thing I'd think was a robbery/mugging attempt, followed by the possibility of a complete maniac.

imported post

HankT wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

Remember in the OP the distance away from the drunk with a knife was 10 feet.

Ok... measure out 10 feet in your living room or hallway. How fast can you cover that distance? What will it take? 3 steps? Can anyone draw and fire before a person takes 3 steps?

Also... a person moving forward can always move faster than a person backing up. Again... how fast can a person with a knife cover the distance of even 5 steps (assuming you are backing up)? Could anyone draw and fire in that short amount of time?

Click to expand...

That's why the move to create distance must be decisive and immediate. Once the situation is comprehended, it is time to leave. Abruptly. Surprisingly. Immediately. Rudely.

Don't forget that the knife holding drunk in the scenario has not yet shown he wants to kill you. And he may be so drunk he couldn't hurt a flea. And if you're wrong about the "knife" being a knife, you may have to become acquainted with the reality of HPCSD[sup]©[/sup].

Remember: Shoot in haste, repent in leisure.

Click to expand...

If he's 10ft away, you can be pretty sure whether it's a knife of not. Maybe you can get distance, and maybe you can't. However, his approaching and pulling a weapon is a pretty good threat. If there's nothing close that you can put between him and you, shooting could be the only safe option. Not one any of us wants, I am sure, but maybe the one that allows us to live. I don't want to ever have to shoot anyone, but I will if necessary.

On this question, the best thing would be a diagram of the exact setting, his location, our location, lighting, etc. Too many variables this way.

imported post

Aaron1124 wrote:

People continue to mention situational awareness, however, there are certain circumstances where, while even using your mental awareness and alertness, you could find yourself in that situation. According to the OP, it's in a jack in the box parking lot, late at night.

You could easily have just exited out of the door of the restaurant, and found yourself in the presence of this man who had just come around the corner. Many scenarios I could think of where your awareness level wouldn't play a factor at all. According to the OP, you don't notice him until he's 10 feet from you. Maybe he came around the corner. Maybe you went around a corner. Maybe he popped out from behind his car. There's a lot of reasons why you may not have seen him until that point.

I'm pretty sure the fact is, you've encountered this man at this point. He's 10 feet away from you, and has brandished a knife *at you* in a threatening manner. If I were to find myself in that situation, the first thing I'd think was a robbery/mugging attempt, followed by the possibility of a complete maniac.

Click to expand...

Agreed, there will always be circumstances that can happen... yet... part of situational awareness is to not just pop yourself around corners without looking or to step out of restaurant doors without looking, or to just wander off into dark parking lots without looking... or to assume that just because this particular restaurant/parking lot/whatever is located in a supposedly safe area that it actually is a safe place today/tonight.

And the following is not directed at any one person in particular... while it is true that crap happens and we sometimes go brain dead in the awareness dept. ... the most important and most effective way to avoid any bad situations is to see it coming before it gets there... and leave before it happens.

The "what if" game can be extended beyond the usual "what if a drunk confronts me with a knife at 10 feet should I shoot" or any of the kazillion "what if and should I shoot" scenarios posted all over forums on the 'net to playing a different game in addition to the usual "what if and should I shoot" game.

Playing the.... "what if there is a drunk with a knife in the parking lot on the other side of the door is there time for me to step back in and shut the door or room for me to run?" or "what if there is a drunk with a knife around the corner is there an escape route for me?" or.... (insert favorite scenario here)... And that game of "what if" causes us to act as if there might be a threat and we end up looking for it... and if we are looking for it we will not be suddenly surprised to have some drunk with a knife appear out of thin air 10 feet away.

Playing that "what if" game helps increase our awareness level and helps to prevent suddenly discovering a drunk with a knife 10 feet away.

Unless we are having a brain fart lapse of awareness moment... and I am not ashamed to admit I have them too just like all other human beings.

Is it paranoid to think this way? Those who have led a life where threats haven't happened to them will think so... those who have had crap jump on them with both feet in supposedly safe places at supposedly safe times understand the world isn't safe anywhere at any time.

imported post

Kirbinator wrote:

Tony Santiago wrote:

imagine you are out in public, and an intoxicated man is very unruly, disorderly, and acting out of line. he gets a little close to you, and suddenly brandishes a knife for whatever reason. imagine he simply does not see your firearm at this point.

what would you do upon him brandishing a knife if he's within 10 feet of you? would you draw down on him and tell him to drop his weapon? or would you simply draw and shoot right away, hoping he doesnt lunge after you with his knife? (considering you dont know exactly how intoxicated he really is)

Click to expand...

Start walking away, keep an eye on him and look for friends. Cross the street. Do whatever you have to to LEAVE the situation and put dirt between you and him.

He's drunk after all. You have the advantage of being sober, in control of your wits and are armed. He might mistake you for someone he doesn't like or had a bad dealing with. Obviously, the mere fact that he pulled the knife tells you he's not driving with a full load of cheese.

Click to expand...

Something else you have to consider; some people simply cannot move away that quickly. Someone with impaired movement, or some other issue, could truly not have the option to flee. In a footrace, a drunk could beat me; I have severe asthma. Case like that, the gun is coming out, and only his immediate retreat will be acceptable.

imported post

KansasMustang wrote:

Suburban78 wrote:

Uh, lets see... Guess you don't do much reading. Ever heard of Rob Pincus, Mark Walters, Larry Pratt and many others... The Term "IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE" is not a legal term (yet) but is used in CCW carry classes and Self-Defense courses all across the US. It is used to clarify while training when the use of deadly force is legal. Although some states do not have a duty to retreat law, why would one just draw and shoot if there were any other alternative? Like I said before, It seems as though some are just waiting for the opportunity to use their sidearm. Now if I was such a dunce that I would have put myself into that type of position(OP scenario)then I would do what I had to! HUM, empty parking lot! Night! No one around! One Drunk Man Acting Crazy! How in the world could this Crazy even get close to you! Why would you even be in that parking lot! Anyway, the point is that EVERYONE would handle that scenario in their own way. I sure hope that if anyone with the BANG!"DROP THE KNIFE" attitude has a damn good attorney on retainer. If and when I ever have to point and shoot, it will be IMMEDIATE AND UNAVOIDABLE and that should leave me without the cost and jeopardy of a trial to prove that I had NO OTHER OPTION.

Click to expand...

He has already committed "assault with a deadly weapon and/or intent to kill". He exposed the knife, therefore I need no other option especially since he's so close. Lawyer on retainer, oh please? Get the behind me you liberal POS You are a sheeple in Guard dog country.

Click to expand...

Thanks for calling me a liberal POS! I'm happy your in Kansas cowboy.

imported post

Bikenut wrote:

Tony Santiago wrote:

imagine you are out in public, and an intoxicated man is very unruly, disorderly, and acting out of line. he gets a little close to you, and suddenly brandishes a knife for whatever reason. imagine he simply does not see your firearm at this point.

what would you do upon him brandishing a knife if he's within 10 feet of you? would you draw down on him and tell him to drop his weapon? or would you simply draw and shoot right away, hoping he doesnt lunge after you with his knife? (considering you dont know exactly how intoxicated he really is)

Click to expand...

From:


Please understand that anyone, including a drunk, who is "brandishing" a knife at a mere 10 feet away... is assaulting you and is already an assailant.

From:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com

as·sault n.

3. Law
a. An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
b. The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.

Click to expand...

OP didn't say he was brandishing at me.

With all your holier-than-thou attitude, you didn't do anything different than what I and most others here would do. I merely expressed the hope to never have to shoot someone. You are one of those know it alls who, at least at the keyboard, can't wait to pull your gun on someone.

imported post

Stupid forum software..... :cuss:

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

imported post

1FASTC4 wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

Tony Santiago wrote:

imagine you are out in public, and an intoxicated man is very unruly, disorderly, and acting out of line. he gets a little close to you, and suddenly brandishes a knife for whatever reason. imagine he simply does not see your firearm at this point.

what would you do upon him brandishing a knife if he's within 10 feet of you? would you draw down on him and tell him to drop his weapon? or would you simply draw and shoot right away, hoping he doesnt lunge after you with his knife? (considering you dont know exactly how intoxicated he really is)

Click to expand...

From:


Please understand that anyone, including a drunk, who is "brandishing" a knife at a mere 10 feet away... is assaulting you and is already an assailant.

From:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com

as·sault n.

3. Law
a. An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
b. The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.

Click to expand...

OP didn't say he was brandishing at me.

With all your holier-than-thou attitude, you didn't do anything different than what I and most others here would do. I merely expressed the hope to never have to shoot someone. You are one of those know it alls who, at least at the keyboard, can't wait to pull your gun on someone.

Click to expand...

Well, other than "at me," yes the OP stated it clearly.

imported post

1FASTC4 wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

Tony Santiago wrote:

imagine you are out in public, and an intoxicated man is very unruly, disorderly, and acting out of line. he gets a little close to you, and suddenly brandishes a knife for whatever reason. imagine he simply does not see your firearm at this point.

what would you do upon him brandishing a knife if he's within 10 feet of you? would you draw down on him and tell him to drop his weapon? or would you simply draw and shoot right away, hoping he doesnt lunge after you with his knife? (considering you dont know exactly how intoxicated he really is)

Click to expand...

From:


Please understand that anyone, including a drunk, who is "brandishing" a knife at a mere 10 feet away... is assaulting you and is already an assailant.

From:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com

as·sault n.

3. Law
a. An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
b. The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.

Click to expand...

OP didn't say he was brandishing at me.

With all your holier-than-thou attitude, you didn't do anything different than what I and most others here would do. I merely expressed the hope to never have to shoot someone. You are one of those know it alls who, at least at the keyboard, can't wait to pull your gun on someone.

Click to expand...

You are entitled to your opinion concerning whether or not I have a "holier-than-thou attitude". Rest assured I now have an opinion of you also.

You are completely wrong concerning your opinion that I can't wait to pull my gun on someone.

I never said I know it all but as for life/death self defense/defense of another situations... I've been there and done that. As have others who post on this forum. Whether you wish to profit from the advice freely given is up to you.

Have a nice day.

imported post

Just yanking your chain a little, dude.



You didn't advise to do anything differently than I said I would.

imported post

I witnessed a man we all thought was drunk. He was in fact high on some drug and had been drinking as well. He puncheda guy sitting next to himso hard he smashed the guys face into a pulp. It took about 5 security guards to subdue this hoon. I doubt if anyone would have been able to out run him. Thank God he never had a knife? Never judge an armeddrunken hoon coming toward you in a threatening mannerby his appearance alone. Ten feet away should allow a good knee shot or two!

imported post

Haz. wrote:

I witnessed a man we all thought was drunk. He was in fact high on some drug and had been drinking as well. He puncheda guy sitting next to himso hard he smashed the guys face into a pulp. It took about 5 security guards to subdue this hoon. I doubt if anyone would have been able to out run him. Thank God he never had a knife? Never judge an armeddrunken hoon coming toward you in a threatening mannerby his appearance alone. Ten feet away should allow a good knee shot or two!

Click to expand...

lol atagood knee shot. This place is full of trolls or fools.



FWIW, the OP said nothing about the guy coming towards you.

imported post

1FASTC4 wrote:

Haz. wrote:

I witnessed a man we all thought was drunk. He was in fact high on some drug and had been drinking as well. He puncheda guy sitting next to himso hard he smashed the guys face into a pulp. It took about 5 security guards to subdue this hoon. I doubt if anyone would have been able to out run him. Thank God he never had a knife? Never judge an armeddrunken hoon coming toward you in a threatening mannerby his appearance alone. Ten feet away should allow a good knee shot or two!

Click to expand...

lol atagood knee shot. This place is full of trolls or fools.



FWIW, the OP said nothing about the guy coming towards you.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't know about the laws in other States concerning deadly force (and I strongly suggest each person search for those laws in their own State, read them, and understand them completely) but I do know about Michigan....

From:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(pc...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-780-972

SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 309 of 2006

780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.



History: 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006


Italics added by me for emphasis.


In the OP scenario what ever actions the person confronted with the drunk guy brandishing a knife took would have to be articulated well enough by a defense attorney to convince a prosecutor or jury that deadly force was necessary.

Would a prosecutor or jury consider a drunk guy brandishing a knife at the close distance of only 10 feet to be a deadly threat? Would the prosecutor or jury require the drunk be advancing for the threat to satisfy the "imminent" part... or not?

I don't know... depends entirely on the totality of the circumstances... and the prosecutor or the jury that was involved.

imported post

1FASTC4 wrote:

Haz. wrote:

I witnessed a man we all thought was drunk. He was in fact high on some drug and had been drinking as well. He puncheda guy sitting next to himso hard he smashed the guys face into a pulp. It took about 5 security guards to subdue this hoon. I doubt if anyone would have been able to out run him. Thank God he never had a knife? Never judge an armeddrunken hoon coming toward you in a threatening mannerby his appearance alone. Ten feet away should allow a good knee shot or two!

Click to expand...

lol atagood knee shot. This place is full of trolls or fools.



FWIW, the OP said nothing about the guy coming towards you.

Click to expand...

Like you sometimes, Just kidding man!

imported post

Haz. wrote:

1FASTC4 wrote:

Haz. wrote:

I witnessed a man we all thought was drunk. He was in fact high on some drug and had been drinking as well. He puncheda guy sitting next to himso hard he smashed the guys face into a pulp. It took about 5 security guards to subdue this hoon. I doubt if anyone would have been able to out run him. Thank God he never had a knife? Never judge an armeddrunken hoon coming toward you in a threatening mannerby his appearance alone. Ten feet away should allow a good knee shot or two!

Click to expand...

lol atagood knee shot. This place is full of trolls or fools.



FWIW, the OP said nothing about the guy coming towards you.

Click to expand...

Like you sometimes, Just kidding man!

Click to expand...

Ha! You got me. heheh