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Thread: What ammo for chambered round?

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    So far I've been reluctant to carry or even store my pistol with a round chambered because of the added threat of accidental discharge. So, I was wondering what everybody uses as their chambered round? Do you use a different round than the rest of your clip, just in case of accidental discharge?

    I've considered using a frangible as my chambered round because it would decrease chances of wall penetration in the event of accidental discharge, but ultimately I think I'm looking for a "less than lethal" round to chamber. The problem is, I can't seem to find anything in a 9mm Automatic ammo. Does anybody know of anything that is available?

    Ultimately my goal is to carry a single "less than lethal" round, chambered, and a full magazine of standard ammo. I've looked at the 9mm Shot Shells but understand that they aren't really designed for an Automatic and often don't cycle the weapon properly causing the next round to fail. I've also looked at the Glaser Blue rounds, but while they are a "shot shell" they are compressed so tightly that they are considered fully lethal and are therefore more like a frangible round than a shot shell.

    Please try to keep from discussing "all ammo is lethal" and "don't point at something you don't intend to kill". We all (hopefully) know the basics, but reality is, occasionally a weapon is accidentally discharged. No matter how rare, and how unlikely, I'd like to take as much precaution as possible that if it were to happen, an innocent doesn't die. Also please try to refrain from "less than lethal only gives BG time to shoot you" or similar. I can fire two rounds nearly as quickly as I can fire the first, and in a situation where a BG were placing my life in risk, I would fire 2 rounds given that I know that the first is less than lethal, and the second would put him down.

    To recap:
    What rounds do you carry chambered when OC/"storing" your weapon? Are those rounds different than what you carry in the rest of your magazine? Does anybody know of a "less than lethal" 9mm round and what is it?

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    I am sorry but..If you are afraid that you will have an accidental discharge you should not be carrying a firearm. Gun's do not just go off (except for Jenning's)

    I'd advise you to take training and do not carry a weapon until you work over your fear.

    A weapon is never accidentally discharged there is only negligence.

    Based just on the post I'd say you do not have the experience or training to be carrying a firearm and you should get some training post haste.

    Sorry if that sounds harsh but life has a steep learning curve and there is no respawn points.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Phoenix David wrote:
    I am sorry but..If you are afraid that you will have an accidental discharge you should not be carrying a firearm.* Gun's do not just go off (except for Jenning's)

    I'd advise you to take training and do not carry a weapon until you work over your fear.

    A weapon is never accidentally discharged there is only negligence.

    Based just on the post I'd say you do not have the experience or training to be carrying a firearm and you should get some training post haste.

    Sorry if that sounds harsh but life has a steep learning curve and there is no respawn points.
    Whatever your belief, caution/discretion is the better part of valor. If you can make a case where anybody would be worse off to have a chambered less than lethal round in a situation as opposed to having the weapon loaded and unchambered (which is law in many states) I'm all ears.

    I know my abilities with a firearm, but I also know that accidents happen and EVERYBODY thinks it won't happen to them, until it does. Also consider a weapon that somehow gets into the hands of a child, if every first round was less than lethal, maybe less dead children. Also consider that BG has your weapon in your house when you come home, wouldn't it be nice to know that the first round was less than lethal, when given the chance to re-take your weapon. There are possible advantages to a less than lethal first round, and the only disadvantages are the time required to fire two consecutive rounds (negligible) and the "loss" of your +1 round (which isn't legal in many states anyway thus placing you +0.5 above those states).

    Please try to remain on-topic. I have my beliefs and you yours. I tend to think through nearly impossible situations. It is in my job description to mitigate unintentional damages, and I try to apply that to every aspect of life, even when faced with the most remote possibilities.

    Edit: Please don't confuse the respect for the ability to take a life with fear. I just wish to be sure that the life taken, is the intended one, no matter the situation.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    I just don't understand why someone would go through the trouble of having a firearm and then have it in a state that is less that what it was designed for. You are in Nevada which has laws very similar to Arizona and they do not have a empty chamber law.

    You said a child could get a hold of it so better to have a less than lethal round. Well with that train if thought why not have the first 5 rounds all blanks, by the time the child get through them they will be tired or racking the slide and maybe an adult has noticed. Or you could just not let the child have access to the firearm and keep it loaded and in a state it was designed for.

    How would you be arriving home and the BG has your gun? why is it not secured in a safe or on your person and again if you are worried that a BG will get fill it full of blanks. Or the better option would be to secure it properly or have it on you.

    To be as safe as possible the magazine should always be filled with blanks and the barrel plugged so that any wadding in the blank could not come out the barrel and accidentally kill some one like what happened to Jon Erik Hexum. If you need to use the weapon to defend yourself you can field strip it, replace the barrel and load up a magazine of live ammo.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    gmijackso,

    The biggest reason for AD's or ND's is pulling the bang switch (trigger) a gun will not just go bang laying on the table or in the night stand. If you are really that worried then leave the chamber empty. In a pistol the Less Than Lethal rounds are very lethal at close range. IMHO , gun handling skills prevent more firearms deaths than less than lethal rounds.

    I agree with Phoenix David, it sounds like you need training in the gun handling dept. Until then, keep your figgers away from the trigger, unless you want it to go bang. No disrepect intended.



    I carry a 1911, and each night I unholster and lay it in my gun drawer, cocked and locked, each morning I pick it up, cocked and locked and holster it. I keep mine loaded with standard ammo.



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    Phoenix David wrote:
    I just don't understand why someone would go through the trouble of having a firearm and then have it in a state that is less that what it was designed for.* You are in Nevada which has laws very similar to Arizona and they do not have a empty chamber law.

    You said a child could get a hold of it so better to have a less than lethal round.* Well with that train if thought why not have the first 5 rounds all blanks, by the time the child get through them they will be tired or racking the slide and maybe an adult has noticed.* Or you could just not let the child have access to the firearm and keep it loaded and in a state it was designed for.

    How would you be arriving home and the BG has your gun? why is it not secured in a safe or on your person and again if you are worried that a BG will get fill it full of blanks.* Or the better option would be to secure it properly or have it on you.

    To be as safe as possible the magazine should always be filled with blanks and the barrel plugged so that any wadding in the blank could not come out the barrel and accidentally kill some one like what happened to Jon Erik Hexum.* If you need to use the weapon to defend yourself you can field strip it, replace the barrel and load up a magazine of live ammo.
    My thought is that if you aren't able to neutralize the threat in the number of rounds your magazine holds, you shouldn't have been firing in the first place, and if the threat is so great in number, the +1 is unlikely to make enough difference and you better have a second magazine available anyway. Therefore, the +1 chambered round is mostly unnecessary. However the time to draw, chamber a round, and acquire target and fire is significantly greater and more prone to misfeed in a high stress situation, than would be drawing acquiring target and firing two rounds. This effectively makes the first round mostly an "automatic" chambering device for a lethal round.

    I had actually considered loading a blank as the first round to have the same effect. However, I felt that a non-lethal round was the "best of both worlds" in this situation, while if you were so inclined to give the option, would give BG the option to surrender.

    Don't you think that everybody with a dead child believed that they had adequately trained their child, or secured the weapon, or both to prevent such a disaster? Again, and I will modify for you, REASONABLE caution is the better part of valor my friend.

    There is a difference between being as safe as possible, and being as safe as possible while still being able to accomplish your task with reasonable effort.

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    .45acp wrote:
    I carry a 1911, and each night I unholster and lay it in my gun drawer, cocked and locked, each morning I pick it up, cocked and locked and holster it. I keep mine loaded with standard ammo.
    Thank you for at least answering one of the posted questions...

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    You probably won't find anyone that will agree to carry anything other than the most effective round possible.

    But to stay on topic, I would suggest you go the route of better Holster retention. Perhaps get a level 3 holster, or even a weapon with an external safety, and practice flipping it off/back on when practicing engaging a threat.
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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    What gun are you worried about?



    Make and model



    Steve
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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    I think we have major philosophical (thank you spell checker) differences, so I'm going to hold any additional comments and see what others think, who knows, I could be off my meds and I hate drama
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    @flagellum
    Actually you were on topic until you decided to stray off-topic and talk about holster retention and safeties.

    @.45acp
    Hi-Point C9, which has a striker action firing assembly, and a thumb safety, in case you're unfamiliar.

    @Phoenix David
    I'm not looking for a philosophical debate, or even drama. I merely asked specific questions to which I was hoping to get answers.

    I know me better than anybody here. I know my goals, I know my abilities, I know my weapon. It seems common place for some reason that when a question is asked, it is dissected to something else and then never answered. That is specifically why I re-posted the questions at the end of my original post, so that it would hopefully re-focus the reader to get an answer to the question posted, as opposed to their solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

    Maybe Flagellum is right, and I'm the only person that has ever considered carrying a non-lethal round. Maybe I'm crazy or silly for considering it. But the fact remains, I didn't ask how to prevent an "accidental discharge", I didn't ask for an evaluation of my skills based on the reading of my post, I asked what rounds you carry, and if anybody knows of any 9mm less than lethal rounds.

    Sorry if that seemed harsh.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    All mine are always loaded w/ round chambered even when in the safe.

    For 9mm I carry 125 grain GoldDot
    For .45 I carry 230 grain Hydrashock
    For .40 I carry 165 grain Hydrashock

    I'd switch to SXT for all if I could find a good supply

    You might want to look at rubber bullets they are generally considered less than lethal. For shotgun there is the beanbag round, there are also rubber bullets for rifles
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Phoenix David wrote:
    You might want to look at rubber bullets they are generally considered less than lethal.
    Thanks! I had tried looking into rubber bullets, but was unable to locate any for a 9mm. There are a ton of "less than lethal" rounds for a 12ga, but every search I've done for 9mm rubber bullets nets another forum with a list of posts similar to above, which is also part of the reason I was trying to avoid them, and why I was more easily annoyed with them. Sorry.

    EDIT: I have found, upon re-searching and clicking more of other people yahoo questions, that A.L.S. Technologies sells AM311 for 9mm. That may be an option.

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    There are several frangible rounds on the market, I’m only familiar with the Glaser Safety Slugs. Basically shot compressed into a metal jacket. There are two styles the Blue and and Power Ball, they use a light for caliber high velocity round. Look into them. Of course, unless they penetrate a wall first, they are still very unfriendly to the human body.

    I have not fired the Hi Point, but have handled it and dry fired it, nothing wrong with the gun. For SD it will do everything you need. I’m just not a fan of the striker fire control system.



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    .45acp wrote:
    There are several frangible rounds on the market, I’m only familiar with the Glaser Safety Slugs. Basically shot compressed into a metal jacket. There are two styles the Blue and and Power Ball, they use a light for caliber high velocity round. Look into them. Of course, unless they penetrate a wall first, they are still very unfriendly to the human body.

    I have not fired the Hi Point, but have handled it and dry fired it, nothing wrong with the gun. For SD it will do everything you need. I’m just not a fan of the striker fire control system.

    *

    Steve
    I had looked at several frangible rounds, and had actually considered using them originally, as I have room mates and Vegas is densely populated with houses in close proximity.

    I've been very happy with the Hi-Point. Price to performance it was a great purchase and has been reliable to date.

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    Just my opinion, don't carry a blank or rubber bullets in the chamber. Strictly for the purpose of reliability, if you ever do need it for SD, the occasion may arise in the blink of an eye literally. A blank or rubber bullet load may not cycle the gun properly. If you are that concerned, learn how to draw, rack the slide and come to firing position in one smooth action. If you can’t reconcile a loaded chamber….IMHO learning to fire from an empty chamber is your best option.

    Steve
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    I use this in .40 as my +1 round. It's not less than lethal but it's designed not to penetrate solid surfaces, specifically aircraft skin, but it will also work with car doors, walls, etc.

    .40

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=159298

    9mm

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=815172



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    have you thought of wax bullets?

    doing a quick search i was only able to find them for revolvers. they use the for Cass and fast draw.

    and have you thought of changing to a revolver. that way you could have it resting on a empty cylinder.

    and why not just keep it unloaded when not on your person. when you sleep you can have the mag out. and if you need it then just slip the mag in, and chamber a round or not. up to you.

    and as the part about people who have lost a kid to a fire arm, thinking that they had trained there kid well anough. well i think most of them didn't. and probably know they didn't do a good anough job but wouldn't want to admit it.

    i think all kids should be taken out to a range or some were. and shown what a gun can do. as in the parent should shoot some 2 liters or milk jugs. so they can see them blow up and spray fluid all over the place. and be shownwhat your fire arms look like and basically were they are. that way they can know when they see one. and also know not to go were ever it is you keep them. but when they are older and its a emergency they would know were things are.

    also they should be shown how to safely use the fire arms. when you think they are old anough and mature anough.

    if you take the missteek and unknown away from the fire arms they wont be in such a hurry to want to touch one. or let others mess with them. and hope fully you have a good anough relationship with them that if they see some other kid with one or if another kid claims he has access to one the kid will tell you.

    Ron day

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    One thought is the "electronic type" saftey where the pistol won't fire unless the shooter wears a special ring. I think it might be magnetic.....anyway when the pistol is outfitted with this device, it's not suppose to discharge...sounds expensive,but might be something to check into......

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    answer to your question...in my SW 38 i carry Gold dot JHP, in my 380 the same and in my 1911 JHP , and my 22 mag derringer JHP..
    I think i like my Sig 232 the best for CC, I think it is because i can have one in the chamber and the hammer resting on its safety, this is a very safe to carry gun with no manual safety and it is double action...absolutly no way for this gun to fire except to pull the trigger...
    I carried a 38 snub and a 1911 for over 40+ years till i got my Sig....and raised 4 boys,
    and i must add.....NEVER in those 40+ years did i ever have a gun fire with out me pulling the trigger........

    Just my 2 cents worth....

    i dont know you so i can not comment on your abilities or habits....
    Just be safe....and practice ....

    don

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    I agree with the people that say that a less than lethal round will probably result in a fail to chamber the next round, unless you want to switch to using a revolver.

    Frangible rounds are probably totally lethal although they may penetrate less barriers. Blank rounds can be totally lethal at point blank (as many actors have discovered), and rubber bullets used if striking the head can cause a concussion which has potential to have lethal effects especially at close range. True, a blank will not hurt somebody 25 yards away, a rubber bullet will probably just cause a welt at that range, and a frangible may not penetrate as many barriers but all are potentially dangerous in the hands of a someone who should not be handling your gun or when it is accidentally discharged. When intentionally discharged a blank is most likely not going to do much except scare a person or maybe burn them at close range, a rubber bullet might sound anemic due to the small charge and make them think you have a rubber bullet gun, but a frangible might still kill them.

    Frangible rounds are still likely to penetrate through dry wall and other obstacles. Basically anything that is likely to hurt somebody very badly is also going to penetrate walls very easily. See Box O Truth http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

    Some people think frangible are good for defense, but I think probably a JHP or even an FMJ might often be better because frangibles fragment so fast on flesh that they may not make for great penetration. That still might make a very wide and nasty surface wound which might eventually be fatal but it may be less likely to incapacitate immediately. I like the FBI terminal ballistics handbook: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

    Personally, I'd just carry a chambered round that was equally as effective as the other rounds I had.

    If you insist on carrying a rubber bullet or a blank you might want to carry a revolver so that it doesn't cause the gun to fail to cycle and jam up on you immediately, which is almost guaranteed on any firearm that requires the force of the fired round to chamber a new round. In a revolver you could manage to use the weak rounds without causing jams or simply have an empty chamber next in line forcing you to pull the trigger twice. There are also plastic bullets which are more lethal than rubber bullets at very short range but not so much at extended ranges. These bullets also will not generate enough recoil energy to cycle.

    If you want to carry a semi-auto firearm you might just want to carry it with an empty chamber or snap cap and cycle the action upon the draw (i.e. Israeli carry.) That is the most fool-proof as far as preventing a lethal round from being fired. They also sell rounds that go in the chamber that lock your gun up if the trigger is pulled upon them if you are worried about the wrong person accessing the gun. That way they cannot even rack a new round into the chamber if they try to pull the trigger the first time. It renders the gun inoperable until you stick an unlocking rod down the barrel and unlock it. http://www.safetybullet.com/

    Or you could carry a gun with a safety lever. With a round chambered, it may be nearly as effective as an empty chamber at stopping improper use while retaining the advantage of the handgun that allows you to shoot it with one hand. Having to rack a round may be a disadvantage if you do not have two free hands. Combining a safety lever with an empty chamber may theoretically provide increased safety also however. If somebody chambers a round on your gun it still won't fire unless they take off the safety. But probably, if they can chamber a round they can figure out the safety mechanism too.

    The first useless round jamming your gun I think is far worse than wasting the extra second to rack your slide.

    I think with proper firearm retention and gun handling the likelihood of any accident being caused by a loaded chamber that would be averted with an empty chamber is very unlikely and it is much more likely that the extra second you have by not chambering a round will give you a life-saving advantage in a self-defense situation.

    However, ultimately you can choose whatever style of carry suits you.

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    I use a Kahr Arms semi auto, with these makes of firearms, chambering a round is not like you see on tv where you simply pull the slide to the rear and release it. On Kahrs you have to pull and lock the slide to the rear and then release the slide lock in order to reliably chamber a round.

    so when seconds count I'm going to have one in the chamber. A firearm is a deadly weapon. I use it when my life is more valuable than the BG's and if I pull the trigger I'm shooting to kill. if you have children in your home, or you are leaving your firearm at home it should be in a safe. I suggest getting a safe that you can unlock quickly. so something with a keypad combo entry is best. I only have my firearm in the safe when I'm not home because i don't have children. If I'm home it's either on me or within arms reach.
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    There is no such thing as a 'less than lethal' round! I well remember several years ago when a promising young actor put a gun loaded with blanks to his temple to show a friend how 'safe' these rounds were. He pulled the trigger and died from one of those safe rounds. OTH, lots of folk have been shot with every caliber imaginable and survived.

    What you need to ask (and answer) is 'how can this particular gun go off'? Is it drop safe? It's a striker system, so is there a loaded chamber indicator? What is the trigger pull? A 10 lb DA/SA is 'safer' than a 5.5lb DAO. If you aren't comfortable with the safety of a particular weapon,sell it and buy one that you are comfortable with.

    BTW, many of the rounds talked about in this post don't cycle in a semi-auto. Revolver may be a better bet for your needs.

    And to answer the OP, I carry a Sig P6, same bullet in the chamber as in the mag.

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    gmijackso wrote:
    So far I've been reluctant to carry or even store my pistol with a round chambered because of the added threat of accidental discharge. So, I was wondering what everybody uses as their chambered round? Do you use a different round than the rest of your clip, just in case of accidental discharge?

    I've considered using a frangible as my chambered round because it would decrease chances of wall penetration in the event of accidental discharge, but ultimately I think I'm looking for a "less than lethal" round to chamber. The problem is, I can't seem to find anything in a 9mm Automatic ammo. Does anybody know of anything that is available?

    Ultimately my goal is to carry a single "less than lethal" round, chambered, and a full magazine of standard ammo. I've looked at the 9mm Shot Shells but understand that they aren't really designed for an Automatic and often don't cycle the weapon properly causing the next round to fail. I've also looked at the Glaser Blue rounds, but while they are a "shot shell" they are compressed so tightly that they are considered fully lethal and are therefore more like a frangible round than a shot shell.

    Please try to keep from discussing "all ammo is lethal" and "don't point at something you don't intend to kill". We all (hopefully) know the basics, but reality is, occasionally a weapon is accidentally discharged. No matter how rare, and how unlikely, I'd like to take as much precaution as possible that if it were to happen, an innocent doesn't die. Also please try to refrain from "less than lethal only gives BG time to shoot you" or similar. I can fire two rounds nearly as quickly as I can fire the first, and in a situation where a BG were placing my life in risk, I would fire 2 rounds given that I know that the first is less than lethal, and the second would put him down.

    To recap:
    What rounds do you carry chambered when OC/"storing" your weapon? Are those rounds different than what you carry in the rest of your magazine? Does anybody know of a "less than lethal" 9mm round and what is it?
    I store my 1911's in condition 1 with either 230g Hornady XTPs or 230g Magtech FMJs. I know you mentioned that you're not looking for philosophical answers, but this proposition is, quite frankly, nonsensical in every way imaginable. If you're worried about ADs, then you probably shouldn't be handling a firearm (I don't mean to be harsh). I know you mentioned that "accidents happen, and you should be prepared for them", but in this case they don't. You follow the rules of gun safety and you don't wonder "if" the gun will divinely manipulate itself and go bang. To me your question is similar to driving half the speed limit just in case your wheel decides to pop off of your car. Make sure your car, or gun, in is proper working order, if it isn't, don't use (carry) it.

    It would seem that you're looking for something you can physically do to you firearm to make it AD proof, there isn't. The only thing that insures that is you and proper gun handling safety.

    And actually I think keeping a "less lethal" round in the chamber would perhaps tend to make someone sloppy with their firearm safety because they have that extra "insurance" that the first round is not lethal, it is.

    On top of all of those things, firearms do, from time to time malfunction and have FTE, or FTF. Having a round in the chamber gives you one round without those possible malfunctions.

    Once again I do not mean to be hostile, and I'm sorry if I came off like a bit of an ass.

    -Miles

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    First question: Standard velocity Speed God Dots.

    Second question: No. Same ammo chambered as loaded. It's tested in my weapon by me, and I know it cycles reliably.

    Third question: there isn't a "less than lethal" round available in 9mm. Glaser Slugs will kill, flat out. They do have a purpose, I used them when my gun was only used for HD at my apartment. But now that I carry daily, every one of my rounds is a commercial grade HP.


    For me personally, the risk of a AD/ND is not great enough to concern myself with a "less lethal" chambered round. If I need my gun to go bang, I need 100% of what my gun has to offer.

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