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Thread: College Carry

  1. #1
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    Finally found a copy of the "Alabama Department of Education Policy 511.01":

    http://www.accs.cc/Policies/511.01.pdf :

    POLICY NAME: 511.01: Firearms on Campus
    EFFECTIVE: 03-24-05
    SUPERSEDES: 511.01 issued 12-08-94; 1982
    SOURCE:
    CROSS REFERENCE:

    Firearms are prohibited on campus or on any other facility operated by the institution. Exceptions to this policy are:

    Law enforcement officers legally authorized to carry such weapons who are officially enrolled in classes or are acting in the performance of their duties or an instructional program in which firearms are
    required equipment.

    http://www.accs.cc/BoardPolicies.aspx : "Governed by the State Board of Education, the Alabama Community College System consists of 22 comprehensive community colleges and four technical colleges"

    http://www.accs.cc/BoardMembers.aspx :
    "The Alabama State Board of Education plays a critical role in the education of millions of children and adults each year. The Board performs the dual role of overseeing the Department of Education's K-12 public schools and the Department of Postsecondary Education's system of community and technical schools, adult education programs and workforce training initiatives.
    The members of the Alabama State Board of Education serve as trustees for the Alabama Community College System with the Governor serving as chair of the Board by virtue of elected office. The other board members are elected from eight districts.
    Monthly public work sessions and board meetings are held in Montgomery, and at times, in various districts around the state to discuss and act on the business of the Alabama Community College System."

    This policy is cited in many of the student catalogs/admissions applications/etc of community colleges (i.e.: Jeff State, Calhoun Community) around the state. It is easier to Google Search for Alabama Department of Education Policy 511.01 to find the policy in PDFs than to search each college's catalog information, policy books, and so on.

    UA Policy:

    http://www.studenthandbook.ua.edu/ri...ibilities.html :

    J. Student Safety
    1. Students at the University have the responsibility to help contribute to the safety and security of the campus. Therefore, individuals and organizations should take reasonable precautions for the safety and well being of all members of the University community.
    2. Possession of firearms, ammunition, and weapons by students is not allowed on campus. The University of Alabama Police Department will register and store guns for students. (Emphasis added by post author)
    3. Students should expect disciplinary action to be taken against them by University, criminal justice authorities, or both, if they:
    a. Throw objects into or from University facilities.
    b. Misuse fire or other life safety equipment.
    c. Use or improperly possess ammunition, firearms, or weapons on University property. (Emphasis added by post author)
    d. Conduct themselves in a manner that endangers the health and safety of other persons on campus.
    4. The unauthorized possession, ignition, or detonation of any explosive device, fireworks, liquid or object which is flammable which could cause damage to persons or property or cause disruption to campus activities is forbidden, unless authorized by the Office of the Dean of Students, the University Police and the Office of Environmental Health and Safety.
    5. Persons having questions as to detailed regulations on safety should consult University of Alabama Police and the Office of Environmental Health and Safety.

    In short, the policies for firearms in this state at the community college and secondary levels are written in such a way that they are unenforceable (the power to do so is contained solely in the legislature and delegated only to law enforcement personnel in their official capacity), which means that they have no power once an individual reaches the age of eighteen and assumes the rights, privileges, and responsibilities of being an adult. The universities of the state -- UAH, UAB, UA(T), AU, AUM, USA, etc. appear to be a different matter.
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    Under what legal authority do they have the power to restrict a right that has been affirmed by the ALSC? It would be different if they were private property owners exercising their own individual rights. But, they aren't. They are an arm of the State government.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    I would guess that the 'authority' comes from the fact that no one has (successfully, at least) challenged them. If there was a way to sue without having standing (without being sanctioned/expelled first) then I would be all over it. As it is, I want to finish my degree sometime this decade, and expulsion plus a legal battle would delay that longer than I am comfortable with. Simple cost/benefit analysis.

    Now if you, assuming you have nothing to lose, want to enroll in a college just so you can get expelled for carrying a gun, I would totally help contribute to your legal fees.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    The problem is not that they are restricting students or faculty, whom they have the authority to expel or fire, respectively. I believe that they have the authority to set conditions of enrollment and employment. I disagree with a policy that prohibits carry by students and staff, but I believe that they have the authority.

    My problem is that these regulations prohibit carry by everyone. If the campus is open to the public on public property, I don't believe they have the authority to stop folks who are neither students nor faculty from carrying.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    I re-read the initial post, and I can only see it pertaining to or affecting students. The very first exception is:
    Law enforcement... ...who are officially enrolled in classes or are acting in the performance of their duties...
    Do you take this to mean that law enforcement who are not enrolled are also forbidden to carry, or that the policy only applies to students, and thus the exception for enrolled law enforcement? I read it to mean the latter, as they have no authority to regulate the former in regards to LEO or LAC.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    mcdonalk wrote:
    I re-read the initial post, and I can only see it pertaining to or affecting students. The very first exception is:
    Law enforcement... ...who are officially enrolled in classes or are acting in the performance of their duties...
    Do you take this to mean that law enforcement who are not enrolled are also forbidden to carry, or that the policy only applies to students, and thus the exception for enrolled law enforcement? I read it to mean the latter, as they have no authority to regulate the former in regards to LEO or LAC.
    Exactly. That's a problem that needs to be addressed. Law enforcement may only carry firearms on private property when they are on duty, 13A-11-52: "but this section shall not apply to any sheriff or his deputy or police officer of an incorporated town or city in the lawful discharge of the duties of his office"

    So when off-duty, they "should" be subject to the same laws and you and I with respect to open and closed carry. UAB's policy does not address this but states that: when not in uniform, the gun must be carried concealed.
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    -52 does not deal with OC. OC is legal because the ALSC says that it cannot be outlawed. Therefore, -52 deals with CC only. Since -73 trumps -52, -52 is essentially useless. -74 allows LEOs to CC virtually anytime or anywhere.

    LEOs can OC virtually anywhere because the ALSC says OC is unoutlawable and even in places where you and I are restricted from carrying in any way, LEOs are excepted.

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    My take on the part of the policy in question is that LEOs may carry on campus when on duty and they may also carry when officially enrolled in classes.

    The policy is silent on off-duty LEOs just walking through the campus, therefore the policy would be the same as for all others just walking through the campus--i.e. disallowed.

    I still don't see any legal authority for the Department of Education to exercise this power. Not the I am going to be the guinea pig who tests it.

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    eye95 wrote:
    I still don't see any legal authority for the Department of Education to exercise this power. Not the I am going to be the guinea pig who tests it.
    Exactly, and it seems to be one of those points that has to be tested by lawyer, in court, after a court battle over three years.
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    Kirbinator wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    I still don't see any legal authority for the Department of Education to exercise this power. Not the I am going to be the guinea pig who tests it.
    Exactly, and it seems to be one of those points that has to be tested by lawyer, in court, after a court battle over three years.
    Yeah, but some poor schmuck has to be the defendant for three years for the lawyer to be able to do battle. Volunteers?

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    Exactly the problem. Maybe one day we can get a big enough group organized to raise money to challenge some of these issues.

    A lot of the current restrictions are in the administrative code and I have been looking into this recently. Under Section 41-22-2 Legislative intent and purpose; effect on substantive rights; applicability; authority to prescribe rules and regulations required in connection with this chapter. It states (c) This chapter is not meant to alter the substantive rights of any person or agency.[/b] Its impact is limited to procedural rights with the expectation that better substantive results will be achieved in the everyday conduct of state government by improving the process by which those results are attained.

    These rules can be challenged Section 41-22-10

    Action for declaratory judgment as to validity or applicability of rule; stay of enforcement of rule by injunction.

    The validity or applicability of a rule may be determined in an action for a declaratory judgment or its enforcement stayed by injunctive relief in the circuit court of Montgomery County, unless otherwise specifically provided by statute, if the court finds that the rule, or its threatened application, interferes with or impairs, or threatens to interfere with or impair, the legal rights or privileges of the plaintiff.[/b] The agency shall be made a party to the action. In passing on such rules the court shall declare the rule invalid only if it finds that it violates constitutional provisions or exceeds the statutory authority of the agency[/b] or was adopted without substantial compliance with rule-making procedures provided for in this chapter

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    Excellent. And all it takes is a lawsuit, albeit a small one. I wonder what it costs to file in Montgomery.
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    Kirbinator wrote:
    Excellent. And all it takes is a lawsuit, albeit a small one. I wonder what it costs to file in Montgomery.
    I found this, not sure if it is what you are looking for though but I hope it helps.

    Section 12-19-71 Circuit and district court docket fee - Amount.

    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...5/12-19-71.htm

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    Alabama Codes 197511-45-1.1 and 11-80-11 Preempt any such Policy concerning Firearms on Property of any Institution of Higher Learning.

    However, if The College/University is a Private School, then, they may regualte Firearms off of their Property as would any Business wishing not to allow them.

    Despite this, Publicly Funded Colleges/Universities are under the guise of Alabama State Law. Preemption is Preemption, regardless of any Policy to the contrary.

    Policy does not supercede Law. Policies are more like Rules, whereas Laws are Laws.



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    Unfortunately its not that simple. Preemption does not apply to the Alabama Administrative Code because it is authorized by the state legislature and an extension of the Code of Alabama. Most of the current restriction on carry is in the Administrative Code.

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    REB wrote:
    Unfortunately its not that simple. Preemption does not apply to the Alabama Administrative Code because it is authorized by the state legislature and an extension of the Code of Alabama. Most of the current restriction on carry is in the Administrative Code.
    Is the ban on college carry in the administrative code? If it is, then it was the legislature the instituted the ban, and it is the law--albeit probably unconstitutionally.

    If it is an agency of the State government that made the rule, without specific authorization by the Legislature, then I would argue that they do not have the authority to make rules that restrict a right protected by the AL Constitution.

    If the legislature gives that specific authority to the agency, then I'd argue that the legislature passed a law that unconstitutionally restricts rights protected by the AL Constitution.

    So, is the ban on college carry in the administrative code?

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    I was always taught, much to my surprise now, that The Alabama Code 1975 is Law, and The Alabama Administrative Code is more like Policy.

    Besides, do Law Enforcement Agencies in Alabama, when making Arrests, cite The Alabama Code 1975..., or do they cite The Alabama Administrative Code?

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    I am not sure about this one and I don't have the time to research it right now. Most other restrictions such as domestic violence shelters, red mountain greenway, all offices of the Alabama department of human resources are in the Admin Code. Likewise the recently changed state park and WMA restrictions are part of this code.



    In addition the code of Alabama in places contains langue such as “In connection with its duty to make and promulgate such rules, the Legislature finds that it is within the scope of such authority for the ___ to make rules etc..”



    I agree that a lot of these rules in my opinion violate the constitution of Alabama but they still stand as law until someone with enough money challenges them in court. and convince the courts to see things our way.



    The main point is the law in Alabama is not nearly as simple as it first seems to be. Even the preemption law doesn’t help us a lot because most of the state government is controlled at the state level anyway. The more I study Alabama law the more things I find hidden in layers of the code of Alabama, Administrative code and the numerous agencies created by the legislature. It would be nice if all laws regarding weapons were in one place but for now they scattered everywhere.

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    aadvark wrote:
    I was always taught, much to my surprise now, that The Alabama Code 1975 is Law, and The Alabama Administrative Code is more like Policy.

    Besides, do Law Enforcement Agencies in Alabama, when making Arrests, cite The Alabama Code 1975..., or do they cite The Alabama Administrative Code?
    The Administrative code is law. For example traffic laws are in the admin code. So are hunting and fishing regulations and a lot of other laws.

    Have a look. http://www.alabamaadministrativecode.state.al.us/

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    Traffic laws are in Title 32 of the Code of Alabama 1979 subtitled "Rules of The Road".
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    OK traffic laws are a bad example because they for some reason are in both places, I forgot about that. Lets take the recently changed state park restriction as an example because I have the information handy.



    The way it works is a section of the code of Alabama creates a government agency and gives them power to create rules.

    [/b]

    Section 9-1-4

    Penalty for violation of provisions of title.

    Unless otherwise provided, a violation of any of the provisions of this title or any rule or regulation approved by the advisory board of conservation and natural resources shall be a misdemeanor.



    Section 9-2-2

    (3) To maintain, supervise, operate and control all state parks, monuments and historical sites, except Mound State Monument and the first White House of the Confederacy; the serving and employing of attendants for all monuments and historical sites located on state-owned property in the City of Montgomery shall be performed by the Department of Finance;



    Section 9-2-9

    (4) To establish and promulgate and from time to time alter, amend or repeal rules and regulations governing the preservation, protection and use of the state park system and the property thereon and to preserve the peace therein. Any person who violates any rule or regulation so established and promulgated shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500.00 or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both, and may be adjudged to pay all costs of the proceedings. The Director of the Division of Parks shall have and he is hereby vested with full police power to prefer charges against and to make arrests of any person or persons violating any such rule or regulation. The Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources shall have full authority to designate any other employee or employees of the said Division of Parks as deputy police officers, who shall have full authority to prefer charges against or to make arrests of any person or persons violating any rule or regulation established or promulgated by the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources;



    All of these rules are compiled in the Administrative code per 41-22 of the code of Alabama. 41-22-3 defines Rule as (9) RULE. Each agency regulation, standard, or statement of general applicability that implements, interprets, or prescribes law or policy





    The Administrative code for state parks (recently changed)



    220-5-.08 Prohibited Devices.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person other than a duly authorized law enforcement officer to possess or carry into any State Park any form of firearm without written permission of the manager in charge of the State Park visited. No person shall possess, discharge or set off on or within a State Park any firecrackers, torpedoes, rockets, cap pistols, or other fireworks.





  22. #22
    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    Are firearms in lockboxs on campus legal here?

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    stuckinchico wrote:
    Are firearms in lockboxs on campus legal here?
    Define "here"?
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    Alabama?

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    Yes sorry ya i mean in Al

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