No more Utah permits

imported post

steveaikens wrote:

rpyne wrote:

Like Nevada, the training issue is just an excuse, the real issue is the revenue lost to out of state permits.

This just adds one more state that will not get one red cent of my hard earned money.

Click to expand...

NM continues to recognize the same states it did before Friday, except UT. Reciprocity is being reviewed with other states and may actually improve. At this time, other than TX, NM does not have a reciprocal agreement with any other state but is in the process of converting states currently honored to agreements.

For the record, there is significant rhetoric on numerous forums claiming this is about money, about instructors whining and all kinds of crap. Crap is exactly what that is. It's not about money. The DPS CCU spends $81 per original license and $67 per renewal - hardly a moneymaker. I have never heard one word from any NM instructor that UT instructors were undercutting them.

Utah does not, nor have they ever had a handgun proficiency/competence requirement in their training. I am the person that compiled the original list of states for DPS, that met our statute of "substantially similar" requirement for reciprocity. Utah was NEVER on that list - it was added to the list by someone at DPS IN ERROR. DPS has corrected that error. DPS has requested an up-to-date list. That list has been compiled and they will have it in the next couple days - after I have re-verified that data.

The bottom line here is pretty simple. The statute is crystal clear in it's requirements. Meet them, you're on the list - don't meet them, you're off the list.

Steve Aikens

Click to expand...

So basically what you're saying is that Utah should have never been on the list in the first place, but posted so. Though certainly given the existence of it on "the posted list" generally gives an excuse to those who may have carried accidentally illegally due to DPS' mess up here. Beyond this point, no go.

That being said, perhaps a law change is in order? Arizona a few years back recognized ALL out of state licenses save for residents of Arizona who had to get their own state license. Wouldn't that be better to do this instead of all this hand wringing over "money issues"?

imported post

Gray Peterson wrote:

steveaikens wrote:

rpyne wrote:

Like Nevada, the training issue is just an excuse, the real issue is the revenue lost to out of state permits.

This just adds one more state that will not get one red cent of my hard earned money.

Click to expand...

NM continues to recognize the same states it did before Friday, except UT. Reciprocity is being reviewed with other states and may actually improve. At this time, other than TX, NM does not have a reciprocal agreement with any other state but is in the process of converting states currently honored to agreements.

For the record, there is significant rhetoric on numerous forums claiming this is about money, about instructors whining and all kinds of crap. Crap is exactly what that is. It's not about money. The DPS CCU spends $81 per original license and $67 per renewal - hardly a moneymaker. I have never heard one word from any NM instructor that UT instructors were undercutting them.

Utah does not, nor have they ever had a handgun proficiency/competence requirement in their training. I am the person that compiled the original list of states for DPS, that met our statute of "substantially similar" requirement for reciprocity. Utah was NEVER on that list - it was added to the list by someone at DPS IN ERROR. DPS has corrected that error. DPS has requested an up-to-date list. That list has been compiled and they will have it in the next couple days - after I have re-verified that data.

The bottom line here is pretty simple. The statute is crystal clear in it's requirements. Meet them, you're on the list - don't meet them, you're off the list.

Steve Aikens

Click to expand...

So basically what you're saying is that Utah should have never been on the list in the first place, but posted so. Though certainly given the existence of it on "the posted list" generally gives an excuse to those who may have carried accidentally illegally due to DPS' mess up here. Beyond this point, no go.

That being said, perhaps a law change is in order? Arizona a few years back recognized ALL out of state licenses save for residents of Arizona who had to get their own state license. Wouldn't that be better to do this instead of all this hand wringing over "money issues"?

Click to expand...

That's correct, Gray. There are all kinds of potential legal issues involved when a state has a requirement in it's Statute that it either ignores or chooses not to enforce, especially so with firearms Statutes. In this case, had someone with a UT license - and not a NM license - been involved in an incident that hurt or killed someone here in NM, the state most likely would have been sued, would have lost because they would have been seen as "encouraging" someone that was in violation of the Statute to bring that concealed firearm into the state - regardless of our very liberal open carry Statutes. This has been a significant discussion issue here for some time. I'm really pleased that those carrying in our state - regardless of where they came from or were licensed from have been very judicious in conflict avoidance and there haven't been any incidents. Had there been any, not only would the CHL program here been in jeopardy, there would have been certain "spill-over" into our open carry Statutes as well.

As to opening up our honors U.S. wide, I can't begin to relate to you how happy that would make me. As you'll recall from our conversations from years ago, I'm a Constitutionalist. As such, I firmly believe the Constitution is a dead document. By that I mean we don't have the latitude to piddle with it - it is what it is -and what it is, is the foundation of principals and rights of the people of the U.S.. It should NOT be changed to suit the whims of those that don't agree with any portion of what the founding fathers created as the law of the land.

What's all that mean? IMO, every man and woman - as citizens of the U.S., including legal aliens here supporting our nation - has the RIGHT to Keep and Bear Arms in this country. I am 100 percent for open carry AND concealed carry - without licenses. I can't tell you how happy I am with Gov. Brewer's signature allowing unlicensed concealed carry in AZ. Though I live in NM, I have a home in AZ as well.

All that said, unfortunately, NM is absolutely not ready to open honors to states that don't have licensing requirements that are "substantially similar" to those of NM.

Knowing what you do in your state, I'm positive you're familiar with the roadblocks the liberals can toss in our way when we try to make positive improvements to our rights within our respective states. I don't know what your legislativ3 climate is in WA but we here in NM have been saddled with a liberal left legislature for far too many years. Frankly, I'm often surprised with some of the changes we have succeeded in making here, to our firearms laws when you consider the mindset of our legislature. I'm working hard to see a change - and hopefully, we can get some common sense changes made here this year. We need to move to a more conservative legislature. I could go on but I know you understand where I'm coming from.

BTW, nice to see you drop in here again. Hope all is well on your end.

Steve Aikens

imported post

Rottie wrote:

steveaikens wrote:

...
For the record, there is significant rhetoric on numerous forums claiming this is about money, about instructors whining and all kinds of crap. Crap is exactly what that is. It's not about money. The DPS CCU spends $81 per original license and $67 per renewal - hardly a moneymaker...
The bottom line here is pretty simple. The statute is crystal clear in it's requirements. Meet them, you're on the list - don't meet them, you're off the list.

Steve Aikens

Click to expand...

Steve you are a bit off on your figures. New permits are $100.00 and renewals are $75.00. It has more to do with the money than I think you'd like to recognize. As far as I am concernedI will not be patronizing New Mexico anymore. I'll vacation somewhere else. We are trying to wratchet up our permitting process here and restrict the availability of the Utah permit as it pertains to those not from our state unless certain conditions are met. While you work to ensure that our Utah permit is not recognized by your state, you can rest assured that we here in Utah will do everything in our power to make sure that your permit is stillrecognized by our state. After all, unlike you, we care about your right to keep and bear arms everywhere legally allowed in our state.

Click to expand...

Wow.

First, I'm not off on my figures. You're reading what you want to read, not what I posted. The cost to NM DPS to do the required background clearences etc., to create a new license is $81. The cost to an original license applicant is $100.

From your comments, you don't have a clue to the legal ramifications of NM recognizing a state license that does not meet the requirements within our Statute.

Lastly, if you think for one second that I am somehow against your right to carry - you are sadly mistaken and absolutely not worth my time to respond to in the future.

A very pissed-off --- SteveAikens.

imported post

Disrespecting Mr. Steve Aikens is about the worst mistake you can make!

imported post

steveaikens wrote:

All that said, unfortunately, NM is absolutely not ready to open honors to states that don't have licensing requirements that are "substantially similar" to those of NM.

Knowing what you do in your state, I'm positive you're familiar with the roadblocks the liberals can toss in our way when we try to make positive improvements to our rights within our respective states. I don't know what your legislativ3 climate is in WA but we here in NM have been saddled with a liberal left legislature for far too many years. Frankly, I'm often surprised with some of the changes we have succeeded in making here, to our firearms laws when you consider the mindset of our legislature. I'm working hard to see a change - and hopefully, we can get some common sense changes made here this year. We need to move to a more conservative legislature. I could go on but I know you understand where I'm coming from.

BTW, nice to see you drop in here again. Hope all is well on your end.

Steve Aikens

Click to expand...

As a good friend of mine keeps telling me: Wait until after the 2010 elections to know which cards you have to deal.

Personally, I just hope we don't lose FL too.

imported post

steveaikens wrote:

Rottie wrote:

steveaikens wrote:

...
For the record, there is significant rhetoric on numerous forums claiming this is about money, about instructors whining and all kinds of crap. Crap is exactly what that is. It's not about money. The DPS CCU spends $81 per original license and $67 per renewal - hardly a moneymaker...
The bottom line here is pretty simple. The statute is crystal clear in it's requirements. Meet them, you're on the list - don't meet them, you're off the list.

Steve Aikens

Click to expand...

Steve you are a bit off on your figures. New permits are $100.00 and renewals are $75.00. It has more to do with the money than I think you'd like to recognize. As far as I am concernedI will not be patronizing New Mexico anymore. I'll vacation somewhere else. We are trying to wratchet up our permitting process here and restrict the availability of the Utah permit as it pertains to those not from our state unless certain conditions are met. While you work to ensure that our Utah permit is not recognized by your state, you can rest assured that we here in Utah will do everything in our power to make sure that your permit is stillrecognized by our state. After all, unlike you, we care about your right to keep and bear arms everywhere legally allowed in our state.

Click to expand...

Wow.

First, I'm not off on my figures. You're reading what you want to read, not what I posted. The cost to NM DPS to do the required background clearences etc., to create a new license is $81. The cost to an original license applicant is $100.

From your comments, you don't have a clue to the legal ramifications of NM recognizing a state license that does not meet the requirements within our Statute.

Lastly, if you think for one second that I am somehow against your right to carry - you are sadly mistaken and absolutely not worth my time to respond to in the future.

A very pissed-off --- SteveAikens.

Click to expand...

Steve not trying to piss you off, however I have a good idea of the legal ramifications of NM recognizing a state that does not meet your requirements. The State of Utah recognizes all permits from other states regardless of the requirements for those permits in other states, and is therefore in the legal quandry you claim I have no idea about. As a private citizen and employee of my state I have worked very hard to esure that this is the case. The reason Why I said what I said about you working to ensure our state is not recognized is because of the Passive approach you took in your post which was to the effect of you are either on the list or not on the list. I truly hope that this is not your official stance and that you make your objections Known to those who can make a difference. You stated that you helped compile that list and therefore gave the impression to me that you had some additional influence than the ordinary citizen.

My point is simply this. It is a dangerous slope that we are finding ourselves on when we start this process of not recognizing permits where the process is not as stringent in one area as it is in the other. This could easily begin a trend where states begin adding additional requirements in order to be the most stringent all in the name of reducing Liability and being the most recognized. At some point we need to start saying enough is enough and begin to recognize that constitutional rights need not be excessively regulated.

I sincerely hope that oyu will make your displeasure known to your elected officials to get this rectified. If the tables were reversed, you could count on me to do the same. Why would I do it for you? Because you do not have the politcal sway in my state that I do. My elected officials could care less about what you think, but they better care about what I think or risk losing their office.

Did not mean to offend, butI equate a passive aproach to a don't care attitude. I hope you'll come to Utah and enjoy using your permit here. It looks like I'll not enjoy the same privilege in your state. I am not going to advocate that our process become more stringent to be recognized by NM, that would set a horrible trend in motion and where would it end. I want you to know that when it comes to protecting your rights in my state, I have your back and would lobby hard against any move to change your status here. I hope you have my back there and will go to work to get things changed! If I meisread your post, accept my appologies. If not, passive just doesn't get things done.

imported post

Just to clarify and add some thoughts.

Utah does NOT have a live fire requirement. SOME instructors will require it before signing off on the permit. But it is not required in statute.

We do require that permit classes cover general familiarity with the types of guns to be carried:

53-5-704
...
(7) (a) General familiarity with the types of firearms to be concealed includes training in:
(i) the safe loading, unloading, storage, and carrying of the types of firearms to be concealed; and
(ii) current laws defining lawful use of a firearm by a private citizen, including lawful self-defense, use of force by a private citizen, including use of deadly force, transportation, and concealment.
(b) Evidence of general familiarity with the types of firearms to be concealed may be satisfied by one of the following:
(i) completion of a course of instruction conducted by a national, state, or local firearms training organization approved by the division;
(ii) certification of general familiarity by a person who has been certified by the division, which may include a law enforcement officer, military or civilian firearms instructor, or hunter safety instructor; or
(iii) equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in an organized shooting competition, law enforcement, or military service.
(c) Instruction taken by a student under Subsection (7)(b) shall be in person and not through electronic means.

Click to expand...

In Utah, we first accepted all other permits for up to 60 consecutive days. (I was originally opposed to this limit, but as you'll see briefly, it worked out well in the end.) This allayed concerns about anyone avoiding a Utah permit by getting another State's permits. After a couple of years with zero problems, law enforcement admitted they could never enforce the 60 day limit anyway since they could never prove someone hadn't left the State at some point the last 60 days. At that point, it was pretty easy to drop the 60 day limit and just accept all permits. We've had ZERO problems with that. Maybe a strategy to consider in improving New Mexico's gun laws.

Or, you might consider doing what Arizona did which is to require their residents to carry on a resident permit while accepting out of State permits for non-residents. Even better, adopt Arizona/Alaska style permit free carry.

At the end of day, all objective evidence is that once you've done a criminal background check, virtually nothing else in terms of training requirements has any demonstrable effect on accidents, bad shoots, missed shots, or other problems with permit holders. People tend to get training appropriate to their situation and to then to act only within the confines of the training and ability they have. Knowing when you can or cannot legally present a gun is far more problematic (rare as that is even) than someone trying to take a 50 yard shot they can't make.

On the flip side, I worked hard to get New Mexico's permit free car carry adopted as law in Utah. And I will be working to get Utah to adopt Arizona/Alaska/Constitutional carry as soon as possible. If every State would adopt the best laws of other States, while dropping bad laws, we'd all be far better off.

I would hope we do not have instructors who would let money or turf wars cause them to work to limit the recognition of permits. But we do hear cases of it happening in various areas of the nation. I'd like to get to the point where people are not having to spend time and money getting permits, but can instead devote that time and money to training that will actually improve their safety.

All the best and best of luck in New Mexico.

Charles Hardy
GOUtah!