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Thread: Kansas City Star - City council member to push for gun carry rights in city halls across Missouri

  1. #1
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    Is it true that Missouri state law bans citizen gun carry in city halls? If so, that does need to be repealed.

    --

    http://www.kansascity.com/2010/04/23...likely-to.html

    SNIP

    Raymore City Council soon could be packing heat

    By DONALD BRADLEY
    The Kansas City Star


    More News
    $(document).ready(function() { replaceRelated(153);});

    When Raymore City Councilman Jeff Cox pushed to allow members to carry a gun during meetings, colleague Charlene Hubach warned that everyone would probably have to dive for cover.

    Cox’s proposal failed to become law. But that was in January. Now, with April’s election having removed two opponents to his plan, he is back.

    And if Cox’s new proposal passes Monday night, Hubach might not know which way to dive, because this version seeks to allow the audience to show up armed, too.

    That would likely be a first for the Kansas City area.

    “I think it’s been proven that allowing citizens the right to carry guns increases public safety and decreases crime,” Cox, a lawyer, said Friday. “All this does is provide those law-abiding citizens 100 percent of freedom under the law.”

    Part of the package is a resolution in which Raymore would ask the Missouri General Assembly to rescind a ban on citizens carrying guns at City Council meetings. Individual cities should be allowed to decide that on their own, as long as those citizens have concealed-carry permits, Cox said.

    His motivation is what he calls the “City Hall massacre” in Kirkwood, Mo. On Feb. 7, 2008, a gunman barged into a City Council meeting and fatally shot six people, including the mayor, two City Council members and two police officers.

    “People who are going to commit a crime aren’t going to let a sign on the door stop them,” Cox said.

    . . .

    Cox is confident his ordinance will pass.

    “If I didn’t think I had the votes, I wouldn’t bring it back,” he said.

  2. #2
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    When I stopped by city hall in Montgomery, AL last week to request all the records regarding my detention, I was shocked to find only one entrance open and everyone having to pass through a metal detector to get in.

    What arrogance to think that a nutjob would want to shoot them up more than anyplace else.

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    Chapter 571
    Weapons Offenses
    Section 571.030



    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof;

    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.



    I am no lawyer but this appears to me that as far as state law is concerned, citizens are allowed to carry firearms into these places if they have a valid CCE. It doesn't specify either open carry or concealed carry being prohibited if you have an endorsement.

    I could easily be missing something here being a newb, so if anyone knows more, please feel free to correct me. I also am unsure as to the federal law restrictions with federal buildings and how they play into this as well as gun free school zone restrictions should these meeting places fall within one of those boundaries.

    The problem in Missouri is that for open carry, you have to be aware of the local ordinances because theywill supercede state law.

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    MK wrote:
    Chapter 571
    Weapons Offenses
    Section 571.030



    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof;

    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.



    I am no lawyer but this appears to me that as far as state law is concerned, citizens are allowed to carry firearms into these places if they have a valid CCE. It doesn't specify either open carry or concealed carry being prohibited if you have an endorsement.

    I could easily be missing something here being a newb, so if anyone knows more, please feel free to correct me. I also am unsure as to the federal law restrictions with federal buildings and how they play into this as well as gun free school zone restrictions should these meeting places fall within one of those boundaries.

    The problem in Missouri is that for open carry, you have to be aware of the local ordinances because theywill supercede state law.
    Very good analysis! I wonder if the city councilman is aware of this?

  5. #5
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    What stumps me is this piece from the above linked article,
    Part of the package is a resolution in which Raymore would ask the Missouri General Assembly to rescind a ban on citizens carrying guns at City Council meetings. Individual cities should be allowed to decide that on their own, as long as those citizens have concealed-carry permits, Cox said.
    [/quote]
    I don't know where this ban is detailed in State law. I have seen bans such as this one in some local ordinances and thought that State law preempted any of them in regards to carrying concealed. If its written in State law, then its a whole different matter but its not specifically addressed within the chapter regarding weapon offenses.

    Hopefully someone with more knowledge on Missouri State laws or better google skills can help me out here.

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    call the councilman and ask him what state law he is talking about?

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    Kirkwood, Missouri had a ban in place. Didn't stop some madman from coming in and shooting up the council meeting - one in which everyone was unarmed except for the gunman!

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    Mike wrote:
    MK wrote:
    Chapter 571
    Weapons Offenses
    Section 571.030



    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof;

    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.



    I am no lawyer but this appears to me that as far as state law is concerned, citizens are allowed to carry firearms into these places if they have a valid CCE. It doesn't specify either open carry or concealed carry being prohibited if you have an endorsement.

    I could easily be missing something here being a newb, so if anyone knows more, please feel free to correct me. I also am unsure as to the federal law restrictions with federal buildings and how they play into this as well as gun free school zone restrictions should these meeting places fall within one of those boundaries.

    The problem in Missouri is that for open carry, you have to be aware of the local ordinances because theywill supercede state law.
    Very good analysis! I wonder if the city councilman is aware of this?

    MK missed another statute. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.107(1)(5)-(6) prohibits concealed carry in meetings of local governing bodies (except by members of that body) and allows state and local governmental entities broad authority to prohibit concealed carry in public buildings. However, the penalty for a CCW holder who violates either restriction is petty:

    Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry endorsement for a period of three years.
    Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.107(2).
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    WVCDL wrote:
    MK missed another statute. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.107(1)(5)-(6) prohibits concealed carry in meetings of local governing bodies (except by members of that body) and allows state and local governmental entities broad authority to prohibit concealed carry in public buildings. However, the penalty for a CCW holder who violates either restriction is petty:

    Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry endorsement for a period of three years.
    Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.107(2).
    Hmm, so unless this locality bans open carry inside city hall, folks with permits can open carry there, yes?

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    Mike wrote:
    WVCDL wrote:
    MK missed another statute. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.107(1)(5)-(6) prohibits concealed carry in meetings of local governing bodies (except by members of that body) and allows state and local governmental entities broad authority to prohibit concealed carry in public buildings. However, the penalty for a CCW holder who violates either restriction is petty:

    Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry endorsement for a period of three years.
    Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.107(2).
    Hmm, so unless this locality bans open carry inside city hall, folks with permits can open carry there, yes?
    Yes.Also, in the absence of an exercise of authority under Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.107(1)(6) to generally prohibit concealed carry within city hall, a CCW holder could also carry concealed except in the meeting room of the local governing body during such a meeting.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

  11. #11
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    Thanks WVCDL, I thought there was more to it and I was missing something.

    There is no stated penalty within section 571.107 for carrying yourfirearm into these meetings other than being toldto leave the premises as is stipulated within 571.107.2. Should you refuse and a police officer is summonsed to remove you, then you are looking at escalating penalties foreach seperate instance of refusal but not for carrying in itself.

    The subdivisions of 571.107 detail alot of places and instances where concealed firearms aren't authorized as they pretty much only specify restrictions on CC as written in the specific subsdivisions,but it still seems to open the door for open carry in many of those sameplaces should someone have a CCE here in Missouri.

    To me, it appears thatunless there is a local prohibition in the state of Missouri,a citizen who has a concealed carry endorsement that is accepted by the state of MO, can open carry into these meeting places.

    For instance:

    571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:
    (5) Any meeting of the governing body of a unit of local government; or any meeting of the general assembly or a committee of the general assembly, except that nothing in this subdivision shall preclude a member of the body holding a valid concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm at a meeting of the body which he or she is a member. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;
    One very interesting mention in these subdivisions of 571.107 is the line:

    Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    Does this mean that you are committing a crime if you remove you firearm from you vehicleand then possess it while your vehicle is on the premises? Can they use this to cite someone? If you choose to carry into one of these meetings, do you have to park away from the premises and walk with your firearm onto them?


    Also, for any who are reading this, I am not a lawyer nor am I giving out any advice. I am just trying to analyze this information objectively as it is written and discuss it with anyone whose willing to help narrow down its definition. I welcome any other furtherinput that helps to bring clarity to this topic and/or points out any fallacy in my assumptions.





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    Missouri Code 571.030(4) exempts those with an endorsement to Carry a Concealed Weapon (i.e. Concealed Weapons Permit) from the provisions of (1), (8), and (10) of Missouri Code 571.030(1).

    Missouri Codes 571.030(1), 571.030(8), and 571.030(10) state:

    (1)-Carrying Concealed Weapons are forbidden,

    (8)-Carrying Weapons into Churches, Election Precinents, or Public Buildings is forbidden, and

    (10)-Carrying Weapons into Schools are forbidden.

    Due to Missouri Code 21.750(1) and 21.750(2), Local Governments in Missouri are barred from enforceing anything differentthan Missouri Law.

    Therefore, one may not Carry a Firearm or Weapon into a Public Building, unless the Person has a Concealed Weapons Endorsement, in which Case,exempts them from that Prohibition. The unique Statutory Framework of 21.750(1) and 21.750(2) work well in tandem with 571.030(4) to bar any such action, regardless of how theCouncil acts in any Public Meeting hereinafter.

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    Another article today: http://www.kansascity.com/2010/04/26...city-hall.html

    Does raymore currently ban open carry in general? In City Hall?

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    Section 210.330 of Raymore City Code states:

    (A) A Person commits an Offense whenever...

    (1) [That Person] Carries a Firearm, or Weapon, Concealed,

    (4) Carries a Firearm or Weapon capable for lethal use, or

    (5) Carries a Firearm or Weapon into a School, or School Bus.

    210.330 then states, under 210.330(E):

    (1), (4), and (5) of 210.330(A) do not apply to any Person with a Valid Concealed Carry Endorsement under 571.101 RSMo or 571.102 RSMo.

    However, there are several Preempted Ordinances as well, and they do not hold any substinance under Missouri Law.

    The Preempted Ordinances are: 210.330(F)(1) through 210.330(F)(8), 210.330(F)(10) through 210.330(F)(12), and 210.330(F)(14)through 210.330(F)(15). These Ordinances are Preempted under 571.107 which only apply to Concealed Firearms, not Openly CarriedFirearms. City Ordinance 210.330(H) is Unlawful, period, per Missouri Codes 571.107 and 571.030.

    State-wide Preemption Code21.750(3)..., which allows regulaiton of Open Carrying..., allows 210.330(A)(4), however; there is a Bill that would repeal this exception. The bill is House Bill 2150, which repeals Local Open Carryoption, and allowsPersons to seek Injunctive Relief from any Unlawfully imposedLegal Disability [Preempted Local Anti-Open Carry Ordinances].

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