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Thread: A bit confused about RCW 9.41.280

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    Regular Member Window_Seat's Avatar
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    RCW 9.41.280 states this:
    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    (b) Any other dangerous weapon as defined in RCW 9.41.250;
    etc.
    Then it states this:
    (2) Any such person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall have his or her concealed pistol license, if any revoked for a period of three years. Anyone convicted under this subsection is prohibited from applying for a concealed pistol license for a period of three years. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.
    Then it states this:
    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;
    And finally:
    (7) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.
    So why does it say that my license will be revoked, and then tells me that I can if I have a license? Is there a conflict in the law, or does it mean that you can only carry a pistol, and not a long gun? "Any firearm" can be considered a pistol, no? Does State Preemption allow me to be in possession concealed or openly carried, of a loaded pistol?

    I'm looking at moving to Vancouver (again), and the Apartment complex I'm going to be looking at is right across the street from an elementary school, so I'm a bit concerned. BTW, I have a CPL. What about long guns? I know that in Calif, the school zone is 1000'. What about WA?

    Erik.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    There is no 1000' school zone in Washington law.

    You are exempt from the (unsonstitutional) Federal Law if you have a WA CPL in Washington.

    You may only have a Pistol on school grounds when picking up or dropping off a student and you may not enter a building even if you are picking up or dropping off a student.

    Regardless, if you were on private property right next to the school the Federal law would not apply.

    #7 (signs) is a feel good measure as signs have no authority in Washington.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    To add emphases to gogodawgs reply.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    This is the exception in bold if you fall into the categories of RCW 9.41.060/070
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    As to

    RCW 9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities-Penalty-Exceptions.

    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;
    gogodawgs states;
    You may only have a Pistol on school grounds when picking up or dropping off a student and you may not enter a building even if you are picking up or dropping off a student.
    I have heard this on several occasions, where does it prohibit you in the RCW's from entering a building when picking up or dropping off a student?

    There is times where a parent or guardian will have to report to the office to pick up a child or drop one off and from what I can see here, you would be legal in being armed, it will probably be frowned upon but legal none the less.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    BigDave wrote:
    As to

    RCW 9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities-Penalty-Exceptions.

    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;
    gogodawgs states;
    You may only have a Pistol on school grounds when picking up or dropping off a student and you may not enter a building even if you are picking up or dropping off a student.
    I have heard this on several occasions, where does it prohibit you in the RCW's from entering a building when picking up or dropping off a student?

    There is times where a parent or guardian will have to report to the office to pick up a child or drop one off and from what I can see here, you would be legal in being armed, it will probably be frowned upon but legal none the less.
    RCW 9.41.280

    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building

    (b) is military, LE, securtiy exemption

    (c) is education related exemption

    (f) is non student leave in vehicle exemption

    (h) is LEO exemption



    It is imperative to read the entire RCW in this case. While one can interpret it to your favor, I would not recommend it.

    If I am picking my daughter up from a softball game, how long can I linger and watch the game on the grounds (not indoors)?
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    disregard, sometimes we must read it a few times to gain the full effect.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    In its entirety. My comments in green.



    RCW 9.41.280
    Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.

    [/b](1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    (b) Any other dangerous weapon as defined in RCW 9.41.250;

    (c) Any device commonly known as "nun-chu-ka sticks", consisting of two or more lengths of wood, metal, plastic, or similar substance connected with wire, rope, or other means;

    (d) Any device, commonly known as "throwing stars", which are multi-pointed, metal objects designed to embed upon impact from any aspect;

    (e) Any air gun, including any air pistol or air rifle, designed to propel a BB, pellet, or other projectile by the discharge of compressed air, carbon dioxide, or other gas; or

    (f)(i) Any portable device manufactured to function as a weapon and which is commonly known as a stun gun, including a projectile stun gun which projects wired probes that are attached to the device that emit an electrical charge designed to administer to a person or an animal an electric shock, charge, or impulse; or

    (ii) Any device, object, or instrument which is used or intended to be used as a weapon with the intent to injure a person by an electric shock, charge, or impulse.

    (2) Any such person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall have his or her concealed pistol license, if any revoked for a period of three years. Anyone convicted under this subsection is prohibited from applying for a concealed pistol license for a period of three years. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.


    So if you carry any of these other devices you will also lose your CPL, But later you appear to be exempt.


    Any violation of subsection (1) of this section by elementary or secondary school students constitutes grounds for expulsion from the state's public schools in accordance with RCW 28A.600.010. An appropriate school authority shall promptly notify law enforcement and the student's parent or guardian regarding any allegation or indication of such violation.

    Upon the arrest of a person at least twelve years of age and not more than twenty-one years of age for violating subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall be detained or confined in a juvenile or adult facility for up to seventy-two hours. The person shall not be released within the seventy-two hours until after the person has been examined and evaluated by the designated mental health professional unless the court in its discretion releases the person sooner after a determination regarding probable cause or on probation bond or bail.

    Within twenty-four hours of the arrest, the arresting law enforcement agency shall refer the person to the designated mental health professional for examination and evaluation under chapter 71.05 or 71.34 RCW and inform a parent or guardian of the person of the arrest, detention, and examination. The designated mental health professional shall examine and evaluate the person subject to the provisions of chapter 71.05 or 71.34 RCW. The examination shall occur at the facility in which the person is detained or confined. If the person has been released on probation, bond, or bail, the examination shall occur wherever is appropriate.

    The designated mental health professional may determine whether to refer the person to the county-designated chemical dependency specialist for examination and evaluation in accordance with chapter 70.96A RCW. The county-designated chemical dependency specialist shall examine the person subject to the provisions of chapter 70.96A RCW. The examination shall occur at the facility in which the person is detained or confined. If the person has been released on probation, bond, or bail, the examination shall occur wherever is appropriate.

    Upon completion of any examination by the designated mental health professional or the county-designated chemical dependency specialist, the results of the examination shall be sent to the court, and the court shall consider those results in making any determination about the person.

    The designated mental health professional and county-designated chemical dependency specialist shall, to the extent permitted by law, notify a parent or guardian of the person that an examination and evaluation has taken place and the results of the examination. Nothing in this subsection prohibits the delivery of additional, appropriate mental health examinations to the person while the person is detained or confined.

    If the designated mental health professional determines it is appropriate, the designated mental health professional may refer the person to the local regional support network for follow-up services or the department of social and health services or other community providers for other services to the family and individual.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

    (h) Any law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency.

    (4) Subsections (1)(c) and (d) of this section do not apply to any person who possesses nun-chu-ka sticks, throwing stars, or other dangerous weapons to be used in martial arts classes authorized to be conducted on the school premises.

    (5) Subsection (1)(f)(i) of this section does not apply to any person who possesses a device listed in subsection (1)(f)(i) of this section, if the device is possessed and used solely for the purpose approved by a school for use in a school authorized event, lecture, or activity conducted on the school premises.

    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

    Note: Here is specifically details never into a building, leaving open the grounds. Sports fields, etc....

    (7) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.

    Not sure what this sign is for???
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    The signs are for those who illegally posses firearms!
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    BigDave wrote:
    The signs are for those who illegally posses firearms!
    Oh, thanks for explaining, it all makes sense now. Kind of like the "No Mass Murder Signs"
    Live Free or Die!

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    BigDave wrote:
    To add emphases to gogodawgs reply.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, (comma) while picking up or dropping off a student;

    This is the exception in bold if you fall into the categories of RCW 9.41.060/070
    Here's another one:

    Must the "OR" be changed to an "AND" for "While picking up or dropping off a student;", to be applied to a person with a CPL? Does that last comma before "While picking up..." prohibit the CPL holder from watching the soccer match while concealing the pistol (with a CPL)? Caselaw anyone?

    Erik.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Window_Seat wrote:
    BigDave wrote:
    To add emphases to gogodawgs reply.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, (comma) while picking up or dropping off a student;

    This is the exception in bold if you fall into the categories of RCW 9.41.060/070
    Here's another one:

    Must the "OR" be changed to an "AND" for "While picking up or dropping off a student;", to be applied to a person with a CPL? Does that last comma before "While picking up..." prohibit the CPL holder from watching the soccer match while concealing the pistol (with a CPL)? Caselaw anyone?

    Erik.
    There is no case law on this subject (that I am aware of). I can tell you that a very good 'friend' of mine has done this for years and with the full knowledge of his buddy who is a sheriff deputy. There is no time limit on how long it takes to pick someone up or drop them off in the law.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    On the issue of "while picking up or dropping off a student" I feel one would be pushing the issue real hard to attend a soccer game and for a period of time longer then it would to pickup or drop off.

    It not be a battle I would pick to fight.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    BigDave wrote:
    On the issue of "while picking up or dropping off a student" I feel one would be pushing the issue real hard to attend a soccer game and for a period of time longer then it would to pickup or drop off.

    It not be a battle I would pick to fight.
    I agree with Dave on this. Picking up or dropping off is not the same as attending a sporting event.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    #7 (signs) is a feel good measure as signs have no authority in Washington.
    I believe if notice isn't posted it may be a defense.

    I am aware of one case where a guy got off on felon-in-possession (for an offense at age 13 I think) where the court never served him notice that he could no longer bear or keep arms, and he was found not guilty due to the lack of notice.
    I can't seem to find it right now though...



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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    cynicist wrote:
    #7 (signs) is a feel good measure as signs have no authority in Washington.
    I believe if notice isn't posted it may be a defense.

    I am aware of one case where a guy got off on felon-in-possession (for an offense at age 13 I think) where the court never served him notice that he could no longer bear or keep arms, and he was found not guilty due to the lack of notice.
    I can't seem to find it right now though...
    Go here: http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pd...9-3.10.doc.pdfand start reading at page 12. This case is hot off the press and refersto ajuvenile casethat may be the one you arethinking of. Don't if the lack of a sign at a school would work in a similar wayto providea defense though.
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    Now to put another layer on this old question of carry on school grounds.

    So, our homeowners meeting often meets at a local elementary school (7pm). It's rented and not a school function.

    As I understand the law (IANAL) I can legally carry onto "school grounds" for this function as there are no kids and it's a non-school function.

    Please correct if I am incorrect.

    Yes, I have a CPL and I usually deep carry for these occations.
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    gogodawgs wrote:
    You may only have a Pistol on school grounds when picking up or dropping off a student and you may not enter a building even if you are picking up or dropping off a student.

    Not entirely true.... You forgot about:

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;


    You don't have to be picking up a student, if you have legitimate business at the school.

    Keep it in the car for

    "ANY OTHER SITUATION NOT INVOLVING PICKING UP A STUDENT" that is considered legitimate business at that school.

    XD





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    oldkim wrote:
    Now to put another layer on this old question of carry on school grounds.

    So, our homeowners meeting often meets at a local elementary school (7pm). It's rented and not a school function.

    As I understand the law (IANAL) I can legally carry onto "school grounds" for this function as there are no kids and it's a non-school function.

    Please correct if I am incorrect.

    Yes, I have a CPL and I usually deep carry for these occations.
    Yes, you can leave it in your car. And that's it. For that situation.

    XD

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    oldkim wrote:
    Now to put another layer on this old question of carry on school grounds.

    So, our homeowners meeting often meets at a local elementary school (7pm). It's rented and not a school function.

    As I understand the law (IANAL) I can legally carry onto "school grounds" for this function as there are no kids and it's a non-school function.

    Please correct if I am incorrect.

    Yes, I have a CPL and I usually deep carry for these occations.
    A simple answer is no you cannot carry on to or into school grounds other then to pick up or drop off a student/s.

    If you attended a school function that was held at a stadium not related to the school but is a function hosted by the school you cannot carry either even though it is not school owned or considered a school premises.

    Real smart stating you are breaking the law and deep carry anyways, way to give more reasons for the anti's to use against the cause

    RCW 9.41.280(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Well, you can teach an old dog new tricks.

    I looked and I cannot find my references. As it stands I'm corrected - I had always wondered a bit. I remembered talking about this topic of private versus public in regards to school property many years ago (more than 15 years)when kids are not present. I'm dating myself but it's good to re visit what your paradigms are and refresh as needed.

    But since for me the meetings are now at the library (which I'm going to assume is legal) it's a lessons learned.

    So, I'm not ashamed to admit I was in error and I have learned something new today (for the better).

    Just to be clear this was NOT a school function but it's a mute point to point out.
    Pubic Schools

    WAC 72-140-080 and WAC 148-140-080 Prohibited conduct at school facilities.

    (4) No person or group may use or enter onto school facilities having in their procession firearms or other weapson, even if licensed to do so, except duly appointed and commissioned law enforcement officers.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=72-140-080
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