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Thread: Organic Open Carry - The uneventful 2nd Amendment

  1. #1
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    I have noticed that there are a number of recent postings requesting a meet up to be organized. I was going to respond to one of these however, I decided that my response really needed a topic of its own.

    Our Calguns counterparts would say that these meets are what got usthe legislation that Saldana has advanced. If we are speaking of events devoid of any community service that are attended en masse for the benefit of media or to attract the Brady counteractivists... They might be right.

    While the meets at the coffee shops and the mass events were exciting, the fact is that open carry in free states is not an organized one-time spectacle.

    I want to encourage those who want to put boots to the ground to avoid organizing meet ups for the sole purpose of carrying firearms in public... (Say what?!?!?!)

    I am I asking anyone to stand down? No. I am asking everyone to examine the reason why they want to carry a firearm in public and be honest with themselves. If the purpose is for self-defense, we should be carrying in our day-to-day activities without the need to gather with large numbers of supporters for 'dress-up' events. If you want a group to meet to justify being openly armed, I would say that your motivation is wrong- and on that basis you shouldnt be carrying at all.

    When I began open carrying in 2006, I did not have the advantage of attending a gathering of up to 100 gun owners. There werent dozens of forum participants with the resources and knowledge who wanted to keep me out of jail. I solo open carried, bearing all the risk on my own.

    Forum lurkers became supporters and others imitated my lead. After a couple of police encounters, meeting in a groupwas percieved as'safer'-- even Calguns suggested that solo open carry was not advised, and that group meetings were preferable to indivdual risk. In retrospect, I believe this policy of "group events only" was completely wrong. In fact, I feel that this policy bears some responsibility for AB1934.

    I think we need to get back to the roots of the open carry movement- individuals taking their right to self-defense seriously, carrying as a matter of their day-to-day ritual- (after the stand down- I will be returning to my previous activities, no more LUCC).

    If you dont want to go alone, go with a friend, spouse, or wingman.

    If you want an event, incorporate a community serviceor act of philanthropy into it.

    Otherwise, I believe the meet up for the sake of making an event of carrying a firearm, is not advised or desireable.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Exactly. +1

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    I would say that group events have a place and purpose. It is one of the strategies that should be used as appropriate for a certain objective to be achieved. There is strength and security in numbers. Some may feel more comfortable with open carrying in a group, especially if it is their first time. We have also seen that LEO swarm a lone carrier, but are much more careful in observing laws when dealing with a group event. Many individuals would not carry alone for fear of LEO, but would in a group. Group events have their usefulness. IMHO.
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    I would say that group events have a place and purpose.
    I agree to a point. I dont however, endorse the idea that of coming out with your holstered firearm only when it is 'safe', convenient, or completely social...

    I think there is nothing wrong with newbs attending organized events with veterans to get acclimated. Once.After that however, they should be taking the initiative to carry for defense as part of their routine, not to sit around and wait for another heavily populated event so they can wave to Mom on the evening news.

    Is is more difficult to handle police encounters solo? Yes- but that is part of the education process. I think with greater frequency, these encounters will become less intrusive. If you all line up to be inspected at a group event, the intrusion will continue with your voluntary compliance.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    There's definitely two sides to the issue. Organized meetups are great for newbies, as well as great for like minded Pro-2A'ers. I disagree that organized meetups need to do some sort of community service, I see little to no benefit to that strategy other than making yourself feel better. The PCconcept of giving back is total crap.

    I do agree that individual UOC is necessary and should be practiced as long as you have your personal recording devices with you and actually turned on and recording. It still amazes me how many group UOC'ers (both veterans and newbies) don't havepersonal recording devices!

    Perhaps your suggestion is timely...perhaps we ought to begin a state-wide, en masse, individual open carry project.

    Now just a little public service announcement, I highly doubtany of the "right people" will ever call an end to the UOC stand down. It certainly will not happen before SCOTUS rules on McDonald, and in a post 2A incorporated PRK why would anyone actually want to fight for UOC? Shouldn't the fight become LOC? Besides, they had their chance to end the stand down call post Nordyke andpre en-banc hearing...and they did not do it.


    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    I see that quite a number of people on this forum are placing high hopes in the SCOTUS ruling on Macdonald vs. Chicago. Is that case really that much of a slam dunk for 2A incorporation?

    I'm just curious as to what have been the tell tale signs thus far that the SCOTUS ruling will come out favorably for gun ownership.

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    The fact that a fair amount of the oral arguments discussed the methods of how to incorporate the 2nd, and less time on whether or not to incorporate. If you're interested you can read the entire transcript and the tea leaves for yourself.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    If you're interested you can read the entire transcript and the tea leaves for yourself.
    Where is this posted? or how do i find this?

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    GlockFanatic943 wrote:
    coolusername2007 wrote:
    If you're interested you can read the entire transcript and the tea leaves for yourself.
    Where is this posted? or how do i find this?
    try this site. www.saf.org
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

  10. #10
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    PM me your email address and I'll send it to you. Tried to attach it here, but the file size is too big.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Hello All,

    I believe there are many who are placing too much hope in McDonald. SCOTUS will most certainly incorporate 2A unless Scalia, Roberts, Thomas, Alito, or Kennedy has a car wreck or massive coronary issue--if that happens the 2nd A will be abolished by judicial legislative act. Elections matter!

    If 2A is incorporated, SCOTUS will render judgement on the very narrow confines of the McDonald case. UOC and LOC will not magically be legalized in all fifty states by a well delineated guideline that is found in McDonald.

    McDonald will be the starting point. Many SCOUTUS and inferior court decisions will have to be rendered before 2A is completely settled law. After all, we are still recievingcase law regarding 4A issues, and it is consideredsettledlaw. Heller has been out for years and the people in DC are still fighting the DC government for the right to have a weapon in their homes as Heller prescribed.

    As for the topic at hand, UOC is a 1st A political activity. Grass roots political uprisings start this way. If you UOC at a group meet-up just so you can pack your piece, well that is fine, but you aren't doing anybody any good.

    My meet-up experience lead to many conversations with friends and family about myexperience and 2A issues. The dichotomybetween Arizona and PRK is astonishing to most.

    As for self defense, most of us do not encounter situations in our daily lives that warrant full time carry. Some do, I am sure.

    The fastest way to get 2A incorporated and followed is to never allow a progressive neo-Marxist into political office again. Don't hope for a decision from a divided court.

    Democrats are the problem while most republicans are not the problem--Jan Brewer notwithstanding.

    markm



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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    MarkBofRAdvocate wrote:
    Hello All,

    I believe there are many who are placing too much hope in McDonald. SCOTUS will most certainly incorporate 2A unless Scalia, Roberts, Thomas, Alito, or Kennedy has a car wreck or massive coronary issue--if that happens the 2nd A will be abolished by judicial legislative act. Elections matter!

    If 2A is incorporated, SCOTUS will render judgement on the very narrow confines of the McDonald case. UOC and LOC will not magically be legalized in all fifty states by a well delineated guideline that is found in McDonald. Call if wishful thinking if you like, but I don't think SCOTUS incorporates the 2nd Amendment in an anemic fashion, only to strengthen it later as more case come before them. Not to say they don't put restrictions on it from the get go, but I think (hope) they understand the 2nd and its history and true meaning. I think we end up with a strong position. I don't think this is going to be as narrow a decision as was Heller.

    McDonald will be the starting point. Many SCOUTUS and inferior court decisions will have to be rendered before 2A is completely settled law. After all, we are still recievingcase law regarding 4A issues, and it is consideredsettledlaw. Heller has been out for years and the people in DC are still fighting the DC government for the right to have a weapon in their homes as Heller prescribed. Helleris a recent decision,itwas decided on in June 2008, less than 2 years ago!

    As for the topic at hand, UOC is a 1st A political activity. Grass roots political uprisings start this way. If you UOC at a group meet-up just so you can pack your piece, well that is fine, but you aren't doing anybody any good. UOC is every bit a 1A activity as it is a 2A activity. One can successfully defend oneself with UOC, its just that LOC truly levels the playing field. Everything else, including CCW puts the law-abiding at a real and serious disadvantage.

    My meet-up experience lead to many conversations with friends and family about myexperience and 2A issues. The dichotomybetween Arizona and PRK is astonishing to most. AZ ranks number 8 overall in the "Freedom in the 50 States" study, the PRK ranks 47. And that was before AZ passed and signed into law "constitutional carry". Something tells me their ranking is a little higher now, while CA could slip to 48 if the UOC ban attempt succeeds.

    As for self defense, most of us do not encounter situations in our daily lives that warrant full time carry. Some do, I am sure.

    The fastest way to get 2A incorporated and followed is to never allow a progressive neo-Marxist into political office again. Don't hope for a decision from a divided court.

    Democrats are the problem while most republicans are not the problem--Jan Brewer notwithstanding. Not necessarily true, take the Mulford Act as an example (the reason why we in the PRK have UOC to begin with), signed into law by then Gov. Reagan, the republicans' most beloved hero in modern times for the cause of limited government.

    markm

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    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Thanks ConditionThree for posting this. It's good to have your leadership and experience on this board.

    All oral argument transcripts can be found on the supreme court website. Here is the McDonald v. Chicago transcript: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...ts/08-1521.pdf

    coolusername2007 wrote:
    There's definitely two sides to the issue. Organized meetups are great for newbies, as well as great for like minded Pro-2A'ers. I disagree that organized meetups need to do some sort of community service, I see little to no benefit to that strategy other than making yourself feel better. The PCconcept of giving back is total crap.
    I disagree with this, if only for purely selfish reasons. If a group of OCers are doing a community service while meeting up, it makes it much harder for the OCers to be painted in a bad light. It's easy for antis to say mean things when all we are doing is having lunch. But if we're improving their community by picking up trash, or raising money for non-profit organizations, or planting trees, or removing graffiti, then they really have to be eloquent to appropriately bash us. Everybody benefits from these meetups; we get positive media attention sometimes, the community is improved, and antis have little twinges in their hearts that make them feel like we're not awful people for caring about our rights.

    Now just a little public service announcement, I highly doubt any of the "right people" will ever call an end to the UOC stand down. It certainly will not happen before SCOTUS rules on McDonald, and in a post 2A incorporated PRK why would anyone actually want to fight for UOC? Shouldn't the fight become LOC? Besides, they had their chance to end the stand down call post Nordyke and pre en-banc hearing...and they did not do it.
    The end of the stand down was given when the 2nd was briefly incorporated in the ninth circuit: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...;postcount=115
    Gene simply asked that we open carry in groups. Looking back, I believe ConditionThree is right about that being the wrong way to go. The large groups attracted a great deal of negative attention.

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    Thanks ConditionThree for posting this. It's good to have your leadership and experience on this board.

    All oral argument transcripts can be found on the supreme court website. Here is the McDonald v. Chicago transcript: coolusername2007 wrote: [/b]
    There's definitely two sides to the issue. Organized meetups are great for newbies, as well as great for like minded Pro-2A'ers. I disagree that organized meetups need to do some sort of community service, I see little to no benefit to that strategy other than making yourself feel better. The PCconcept of giving back is total crap.
    I disagree with this, if only for purely selfish reasons. If a group of OCers are doing a community service while meeting up, it makes it much harder for the OCers to be painted in a bad light. It's easy for antis to say mean things when all we are doing is having lunch. But if we're improving their community by picking up trash, or raising money for non-profit organizations, or planting trees, or removing graffiti, then they really have to be eloquent to appropriately bash us. Everybody benefits from these meetups; we get positive media attention sometimes, the community is improved, and antis have little twinges in their hearts that make them feel like we're not awful people for caring about our rights.

    Now just a little public service announcement, I highly doubt any of the "right people" will ever call an end to the UOC stand down. It certainly will not happen before SCOTUS rules on McDonald, and in a post 2A incorporated PRK why would anyone actually want to fight for UOC? Shouldn't the fight become LOC? Besides, they had their chance to end the stand down call post Nordyke and pre en-banc hearing...and they did not do it.
    The end of the stand down was given when the 2nd was briefly incorporated in the ninth circuit: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...;postcount=115
    Gene simply asked that we open carry in groups. Looking back, I believe ConditionThree is right about that being the wrong way to go. The large groups attracted a great deal of negative attention.
    Thanks for the link to Gene's message. Back then I did a search for such a message and never found one. Even mentioned it to Gene in the forums and he never mentioned it either. Whilehe does advise to UOC in groups only, it does not specifically say the stand down has ended or has been called off. Call it a technicality, but words matter, however I won't belabor the point. If you want to claim the stand down endedfor 3 months, so be it.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    i've been OC'ing for about 2 weeks to all my daily routines as permitted by zoning regs. what i want to accomplish from a meet is to be able to educate others and to help others gain confidence in OC'ing as part of daily activities. i have no interest in just being able to socialize. i wish to see others out there actively participate in OC'ing.

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    Hey coolusername2007,

    Thanks for affirming most of what I wrote except for (yours is in blue):

    "If 2A is incorporated, SCOTUS will render judgement on the very narrow confines of the McDonald case. UOC and LOC will not magically be legalized in all fifty states by a well delineated guideline that is found in McDonald. Call if wishful thinking if you like, but I don't think SCOTUS incorporates the 2nd Amendment in an anemic fashion, only to strengthen it later as more case come before them. Not to say they don't put restrictions on it from the get go, but I think (hope) they understand the 2nd and its history and true meaning. I think we end up with a strong position. I don't think this is going to be as narrow a decision as was Heller."

    You also wrote:

    "Helleris a recent decision,itwas decided on in June 2008, less than 2 years ago!"

    The citizens of DC will not have ordinances in place to allow them to legally have a weapon in their houses for years. Heller is probably going back to SCOTUS. The appeals court for DChas a case now that is about DCs restrictive ordinances for having a weapon in a DC house. DC has flipped-off SCOTUS. You are nuts if you think our legislature is going to bow-down to a SCOTUS ruling--Ha-ha-LOL!

    SCOTUS has never used a "broad brush" when crafting their judgements. They always rule on the narrow confines of thecase at hand. If they rule broadly, I think that is a sign that the majority thinks our country is in a Constitutional Crisis.

    And about your Ronald Reagan statement, as I said, most republicans are good on 2A.

    Democrats are definately the problem. I get tired of people who support democrats because ofreligous furver (no logic or rational reasoning) while decrying the restrictive laws that we get from democrats. Republicans fail when they try to get-along withprogressive liberal majorities and compromise their beliefs to get legislation passed. Ronald Reagan was guilty of that. The 1986 amnesty bill is another example of RR comprising with neo-Marxist Tip O'Niel. Sausage making is not pretty.

    Disclaimer: I use ideological labels because ideology matters. I am a right-wing conservative who has somelibertarian leanings. Again, ideology matters and a politician who won't clearly delineate their ideology is usually a neo-Marxist (progressive).

    markm

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    There's definitely two sides to the issue. Organized meetups are great for newbies, as well as great for like minded Pro-2A'ers.1) I disagree that organized meetups need to do some sort of community service, I see little to no benefit to that strategy other than making yourself feel better. The PCconcept of giving back is total crap.

    I do agree that individual UOC is necessary and should be practiced as long as you have your personal recording devices with you and actually turned on and recording. It still amazes me how many group UOC'ers (both veterans and newbies) don't havepersonal recording devices!

    2)Perhaps your suggestion is timely...perhaps we ought to begin a state-wide, en masse, individual open carry project.

    Now just a little public service announcement, 3)I highly doubtany of the "right people" will ever call an end to the UOC stand down. It certainly will not happen before SCOTUS rules on McDonald, and in a post 2A incorporated PRK why would anyone actually want to fight for UOC? Shouldn't the fight become LOC? Besides, they had their chance to end the stand down call post Nordyke andpre en-banc hearing...and they did not do it.

    1) If organized group open carrymeet ups (media attracting)are to continue, I think there must be an element of self sacrifice involved. The socialists/leftists have a difficult time reconciling the act of self-defense and acts of community service commited at the same time. The golden gate park clean up illustrated this dichotomy and the leftists werein my view,'conflicted' in spite of the interferance of an law enforcement interloper.

    2) This suggestion is not timely. Its unfortunately, about 10 months too late. I am not 100% convinced that circumstances would be the same if solo open carry was embraced in favor of group open carry. The group action is in my view, solely responsible for AB1934. And this, in part illustrates the need to fill a community service component in exposed carry defense...The way it was framed in the media, it appeared that this was about the in-your-face demonstration ofrights at the offense of whomever was observing. If people were simply miding their own business, carrying as a part of theirdaily activities, I doubt that this would have scarcely raisedmedia attention.As the experiences shared by Ca_Libertarian and I demonstrated, no one was really interested in our activities until we had our first police encounter-- in both cases, requiring about a year of open carry activity before illiciting their response.

    3) The 'right people'would call for the OC contingent if it suited their objectives.This wouldnt occur until both McDonald and Sykes had made their way through the judicial system... And only after each participant had made an application to carry concealed in the county in whichthey reside. (This would give the applicant standing for litigationin the new world of California 'shall issue' CCW.)Personally, I'm not so sure if I want to be used to advance the licensing of concealed carry... Which is why I intend to resume my activities immediately after the McDonald ruling is revealed, so a better case for Constitutional carry would be preferable.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    I wouldn't even know about open carry if not for those meet ups. I get what your saying and your right, its sort of a publicity stunt by gun owners to meet up in public but I think its the best thing done for gun owners in decades. Its good to meet up for "newbies" and thats exactly what we need for this movement to grow, more newbies...lots of them, so if the movement is to be successful in regaining ground in the 2A, I say we need to hold meet ups regularly, if only to promote the cause and strengthen more "newbies" in the arts of open carry Joe CooL

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    coolusername2007 wrote:
    There's definitely two sides to the issue. Organized meetups are great for newbies, as well as great for like minded Pro-2A'ers.1) I disagree that organized meetups need to do some sort of community service, I see little to no benefit to that strategy other than making yourself feel better. The PCconcept of giving back is total crap
    Hmmm....Well, I think giving back is a great way to fight negative media coverage regarding crazed gun owners and its a great way to take on a leadership role in the community not to mention get others involved. Anything that moves us forward and helps us grow should be encouraged. Meet Ups are great, especially those which better service our communities. Serving others is always a great way to grow and secure a position of leadership which is what we need in our communities. Anyone who serves others already secures their position by doing so.

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    Deathwing_Kingstar wrote:
    i've been OC'ing for about 2 weeks to all my daily routines as permitted by zoning regs. what i want to accomplish from a meet is to be able to educate others and to help others gain confidence in OC'ing as part of daily activities. i have no interest in just being able to socialize. i wish to see others out there actively participate in OC'ing.
    is this not, what the meet ups were for? To help educate and empower people. In a perfect world everyone would be individually respected and people wouldn't be afraid of cold holstered metal but we need to keep breaking in our communities and empowering people so that its more normal to see guns around everyday on everyday people. I like your take Kingstar...Joe Cool If you want to be leaders serve others.

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    Deathwing_Kingstar wrote:
    i've been OC'ing for about 2 weeks to all my daily routines as permitted by zoning regs. what i want to accomplish from a meet is to be able to educate others and to help others gain confidence in OC'ing as part of daily activities. i have no interest in just being able to socialize. i wish to see others out there actively participate in OC'ing.
    is this not, what the meet ups were for? To help educate and empower people. In a perfect world everyone would be individually respected and people wouldn't be afraid of cold holstered metal but we need to keep breaking in our communities and empowering people so that its more normal to see guns around everyday on everyday people. I like your take Kingstar...Joe Cool If you want to be leaders serve others.

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    Deathwing_Kingstar wrote:
    i've been OC'ing for about 2 weeks to all my daily routines as permitted by zoning regs. what i want to accomplish from a meet is to be able to educate others and to help others gain confidence in OC'ing as part of daily activities. i have no interest in just being able to socialize. i wish to see others out there actively participate in OC'ing.
    is not this what the meet ups were for? To help educate and empower people. In a perfect world everyone would be individually respected and people wouldn't be afraid of cold holstered metal but we need to keep breaking in our communities and empowering people so that its more normal to see guns around everyday on everyday people. I like your take Kingstar...Joe Cool If you want to be leaders serve others.

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    If you keep doing what you have always done you gonna get what you always get weather good or bad.

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    MarkBofRAdvocate wrote:
    I use ideological labels because ideology matters. I am a right-wing conservative who has somelibertarian leanings. Again, ideology matters and a politician who won't clearly delineate their ideology is usually a neo-Marxist (progressive)
    I'm with ya on this !!!

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    The (small/medium sized) group meetups serve their purpose in raising awareness and informing people of their rights. Excessively large meetups can prove to be an hinderance to the cause. The media looks at the large events like they are meant to "shock and awe" thue public. Like meets at Starbucks, this is not reccommended.

    Until AB 1934 passes we should be carrying regularly through our day. Keep extra pamphlets. They hardly ever have meets in our neighboring states due to how natural it is to carry there; openly and concealed.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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