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Beginner's pistol/ Gun liscence

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Bikenut

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stainless1911 wrote:
.22s are loads of fun, and cheap to operate.

9mm is absolutely the smallest defensive round, but if youre thinking ahead, you might know that someone being shot at will usually try to hide behind something, at which point a 9 wont do a whole lot for you.

As far as a cheap gun goes, you could get a hi point, but other than getting teased relentlessly, you get what you pay for.
Stainless1911... I have much respect for you so please do not misunderstand the following that isn't directed at you personally...

Everyone be warned... the following is a pet peeve of mine...

I know many gun pundits say that 9mm is the smallest defensive caliber that should be considered... but those pundits leave out one essential consideration... recoil control.

There are folks who could rapid fire (and I say rapid fire because that criteria is necessary when considering how the average person would use the gun in defense of themselves) a very large caliber and stay on target. And there are folks who can't stay on target with anything larger than a .22. And folks everywhere in between.

It is the "stay on target" part that is important because bullets from follow up shots that miss due to inability to control recoil (keep gun on target) don't do anything no matter how big that bullet is.

The best choice a person can make for the most effective self defense caliber is the largest caliber they can shoot the best and stay on target rapid fire.... regardless of how big, or small, that caliber is because...

Only hits make holes. Misses just make noise.

This website is a good source of information.... even if it's emphasis is more to CC than OC. But then a CC gun works for OC with a simple change of holsters so....

http://www.spw-duf.info/handgun.html

Please note that caliber choice is #5 in importance. And please surf around that site for a great deal of good info... and no, it isn't my site either.

However, it is my opinion based upon years of working with and watching folks on the range that many people carry a caliber for defense that is too big for their ability to control the recoil.

Ok... Monday morning still working on my cuppa coffee rant over and done.:D
 

Bronson

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Bikenut wrote:
The best choice a person can make for the most effective self defense caliber is the largest caliber they can shoot the best and stay on target rapid fire.... regardless of how big, or small, that caliber is because...

There is iron in Bikenut's words. 9 hits with a .22 are better than 7 misses with a .45.

Bronson
 

stainless1911

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I completely understand where youre coming from here. My opinions come from some things that I have read,some things I have done, and some people I have talked to.

I wish I could get the same recoil out of the .40 as a 9 certainly. Ive read many of the same things you have in this caliber war. If 9mm was sufficient, then why make a +p round for it? Im sure there is one for the 40 and 45, somewhere. One of the strongest arguments I have for the 40 and above, is based on what Ive heard from LEO and military who have carried the 9, and were, to say the least, scared of it. Too many first hand accounts of people saying the round was inadequate. Against bare skin, sure, I wouldnt want one flying at me. But against barriers, it doesnt really have the mass. Hollowpoints are going to make things worse. The other reason I have this position is through some of the meager informal testing I have done. After shooting the .40 through a few things, I will likely be moving to a .45 or 10mm, provided that I can still control the recoil. For me, the .40Xd is approaching my limit. Ill probably go with a steel frame to help compensate for the recoil. I fired at a car door with the .40 a couple times at about 6 feet, and one of the rounds stopped in the door after hitting the re enforcement panel, making a nice dent, but that was all. the other round went through, and stopped in a piece of wood I had set up for a backstop. It went in an inch or so, you could see it. Ill show you the holes if I bring the Festiva to a meet. Still have the round. I fired it into a 4x4 laying on a piece of plywood on the floor in front of me. It went all the way through the 4x4 making a nice dent in the ply. I popped the round out of the 4x4 with a screwdriver. Still have it. I shot one through the windsheild, inside out, and into a tree that was about15 feet in front of, and to the right of the car. Made a sweet hole, bit only went into the tree an inch or so. It went through the bark, and was pretty much done at that point. Ive still got that one too. and finally, I popped one through a milk jug full of water, and recovered the roind from the wooden backstop. It went an inch and a quarter into the wood, and opened up beautifully. Its my favorite.

After personally witnessing these "tests" I wouldnt feel entirely comfortable carrying a 9mm. JMO
 

stainless1911

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Those are great links guys, I do read links.

My issue isnt wether a 9mm is more effective in the body than a .40 or .45, my issue is getting the bullet there to begin with. a 9mm is .355in, but a .40 is .401in. This difference of just over a millimeter is irrelevent when passing through the center of mass at close to the speed of sound.

I have no doubt of the effectiveness of a 9mm., but after recovering the.40 from the tree through the windsheild, I had to ask myself, "Maybe I should have gone with a .45."
 
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Bikenut

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stainless1911 wrote:
Those are great links guys, I do read links.

My issue isnt wether a 9mm is more effective in the body than a .40 or .45, my issue is getting the bullet there to begin with. a 9mm is .355in, but a .40 is .401in. This difference of just over a millimeter is irrelevent when passing through the center of mass at close to the speed of sound.

I have no doubt of the effectiveness of a 9mm., but after recovering the.40 from the tree through the windsheild, I had to ask myself, "Maybe I should have gone with a .45."
Ummmm... this is a serious question and not a smart arsed one....

Why, as a citizen and not LE or military, are you concerned with the ability of any round to pass through barriers?

I know movies show 20 minute gunfights shooting hundreds of rounds that bounce off stuff with a spray of sparks with the bad guy(s) hiding behind anything from a skyscraper to a couch and nobody get hit... until, in an heroic display of manliness the hero stands up and in the middle of a hail of bullets makes one single shot to the exact center of the bad guys forehead.

Ok... I hope y'all laughed at that...:D but really, if there is a concern about shooting through barriers for a citizen in a self defense situation... I'd truly like to hear what those concerns are.

Unless you are thinking of SHTF application?
 

American Boy With a Gun

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if your depending on a pistol for a SHTF scenario you need to rethink that ;).....

lol......but yes, if i can keep a .500S&W on target with rapid fire...i would totally carry that....however i think ima try and stick with a .40 or a .357 depending on if its a revolver or not
 

Recoil88

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I have a S&W M&P 40C its a great gun in my opinion. The recoil is not bad but it is hard to keep on the spot i am aiming at when rapid firing so i am going to look into magna porting. I hear that might do some good as pertaining to keeping the bullets going to where you are aiming during rapid fire.
 

stainless1911

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I was referring to a SHTF scenario. Wether in my home, or abroad. Consider needing to stop your own carjacking, you may very well have to open up on an armed assailant through the glass in your car. Or, walking in a parking lot, and someone tries to run over you. You may want to fire through their windsheild. Someone could be hiding behind a door for cover, (*automotive or otherwise,) and you may need to hit them through the barrier. Or if they pick up something to use as a sheild. Definately SHTF stuff.
 
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Bikenut

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stainless1911 wrote:
I was referring to a SHTF scenario. Wether in my home, or abroad. Consider needing to stop your own carjacking, you may very well have to open up on an armed assailant through the glass in your car. Or, walking in a parking lot, and someone tries to run over you. You may want to fire through their windsheild. Someone could be hiding behind a door for cover, (*automotive or otherwise,) and you may need to hit them through the barrier. Or if they pick up something to use as a sheild. Definately SHTF stuff.
If the SHTF it won't be a pistol I will be relying on...........making the ability of my pistol rounds to penetrate barriers a moot point.:)
 

Denny

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Recoil88 wrote:
I have a S&W M&P 40C its a great gun in my opinion. The recoil is not bad but it is hard to keep on the spot i am aiming at when rapid firing so i am going to look into magna porting. I hear that might do some good as pertaining to keeping the bullets going to where you are aiming during rapid fire.
Just keep in mind that if you are carrying for self defense and have to use your firearm at night, I understand ported guns can temporarily mess up your vision from the muzzle flash.
 

Bronson

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fozzy71

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As long as this thread has derailed slightly to caliber talk, do any of you guys have experience with a FN Five/Seven?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

Particularly significant to the design of the Five-seven is the bottlenecked 5.7x28mm cartridge created by FN for use in it. This cartridge weighs 6.0 g (93 grains),[29] roughly half as much as a typical 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge, allowing extra ammunition to be carried more easily.[26][30][31] The 5.7x28mm cartridge produces considerable muzzle blast and flash, but it produces roughly 30% less recoil than the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge, improving controllability.[19][31] It also exhibits a flatter trajectory.[30]

One of the design intents of the SS190 variation of this cartridge (not sporting variations) was that it have the ability to penetrate Kevlar protective vests, such as the NATO CRISAT vest, that will stop conventional pistol bullets.[31] The 5.7x28mm SS190 will pierce this protection at a range of 200 meters.[31]

In testing conducted by Passaic County, New Jersey Sheriff's Department, the SS190 penetrated 27 cm (11 in) in bare ballistic gelatin, and penetrated 22.86 cm (9 in) in gelatin protected with a Kevlar vest.[14] The SS190 and similar 5.7x28mm projectiles have been shown to turn base over point ("tumble") in testing in ballistic gelatin and other media, using the 21.6 mm (.85 in) projectile length[10] to create a larger wound cavity.[14][15][16][26] However, some are skeptical of the bullet's terminal performance, and it is a subject of debate among civilian shooters in the United States.[15]

FN states that the Five-seven has an effective range of 50 m (165 ft) and a maximum range of 1510 m (4950 ft).[10] Since the SS190 projectile does not rely on fragmentation or the expansion of a hollow point, the cartridge and pistol are considered suitable for military use under the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which prohibit use of expanding or fragmenting bullets in warfare.[
 
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