School property carry

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

 

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SIGfreed wrote:

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

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The question was asked above which pertains to preemption or not. Hence Zig's post above with link. It's been bounced around quite a bit it looks to be a gray area which I don't want to be a test case for. Considering that I help fund that school I'd like to refuse to leave but I'm not willing to push the limits on it.

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SIGfreed wrote:

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

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MCL 123.1102 only restricts certain "Local Units of Government" - those being Cities, Townships, Counties, and Municipalities.

A School District is not listed - and is a completely separate unit of government from a City, County, etc.

Therefore, a School District may restrict carry on property they control.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

SIGfreed wrote:

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

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MCL 123.1102 only restricts certain "Local Units of Government" - those being Cities, Townships, Counties, and Municipalities.

A School District is not listed - and is a completely separate unit of government from a City, County, etc.

Therefore, a School District may restrict carry on property they control.

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Who would have the legal authority to ask you to leave?

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maustin195 wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

SIGfreed wrote:

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

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MCL 123.1102 only restricts certain "Local Units of Government" - those being Cities, Townships, Counties, and Municipalities.

A School District is not listed - and is a completely separate unit of government from a City, County, etc.

Therefore, a School District may restrict carry on property they control.

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Who would have the legal authority to ask you to leave?

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Any authority of the school. Principal, Vice Principal, Superintendant, etc.

The law itself doesn't say - it would be a determination of the courts as to whether or not an individual telling you to leave would be notice of trespass or not.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

maustin195 wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

SIGfreed wrote:

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

Click to expand...

MCL 123.1102 only restricts certain "Local Units of Government" - those being Cities, Townships, Counties, and Municipalities.

A School District is not listed - and is a completely separate unit of government from a City, County, etc.

Therefore, a School District may restrict carry on property they control.

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Who would have the legal authority to ask you to leave?

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Any authority of the school. Principal, Vice Principal, Superintendant, etc.

The law itself doesn't say - it would be a determination of the courts as to whether or not an individual telling you to leave would be notice of trespass or not.

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I think you're wrong.

If that were the case then sprinklerguy28 would have been told to leave. Instead they found that what he does is lawful and they can't do anything about it.

Read his thread again. It's pretty cut and dry. No gray areas at all.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/40511.html

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MIKEHUNT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

maustin195 wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

SIGfreed wrote:

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

Click to expand...

MCL 123.1102 only restricts certain "Local Units of Government" - those being Cities, Townships, Counties, and Municipalities.

A School District is not listed - and is a completely separate unit of government from a City, County, etc.

Therefore, a School District may restrict carry on property they control.

Click to expand...

Who would have the legal authority to ask you to leave?

Click to expand...

Any authority of the school. Principal, Vice Principal, Superintendant, etc.

The law itself doesn't say - it would be a determination of the courts as to whether or not an individual telling you to leave would be notice of trespass or not.

Click to expand...

I think you're wrong.

If that were the case then sprinklerguy28 would have been told to leave. Instead they found that what he does is lawful and they can't do anything about it.

Read his thread again. It's pretty cut and dry. No gray areas at all.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/40511.html

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Just because they don't know they can ask him to leave, doesn't mean that they can't ask him to leave.

I agree that Sprinklerguy was not breaking any laws.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

MIKEHUNT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

maustin195 wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

SIGfreed wrote:

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

Click to expand...

MCL 123.1102 only restricts certain "Local Units of Government" - those being Cities, Townships, Counties, and Municipalities.

A School District is not listed - and is a completely separate unit of government from a City, County, etc.

Therefore, a School District may restrict carry on property they control.

Click to expand...

Who would have the legal authority to ask you to leave?

Click to expand...

Any authority of the school. Principal, Vice Principal, Superintendant, etc.

The law itself doesn't say - it would be a determination of the courts as to whether or not an individual telling you to leave would be notice of trespass or not.

Click to expand...

I think you're wrong.

If that were the case then sprinklerguy28 would have been told to leave. Instead they found that what he does is lawful and they can't do anything about it.

Read his thread again. It's pretty cut and dry. No gray areas at all.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/40511.html

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Just because they don't know they can ask him to leave, doesn't mean that they can't ask him to leave.

I agree that Sprinklerguy was not breaking any laws.

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You don't think that if they could have, that the 3 police officers there, including the resident dare officer who most certainly would have had the "authority", would have?

Don't you think that after conferring with the city attorney that if they could have just told him not to do it that they simply would have?

No. They didn't because they knew they couldn't. Simple as that.

And of course he wasn't breaking any laws. That's obvious. If he had been he would have gotten arrested in a NY minute.

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MIKEHUNT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

MIKEHUNT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

maustin195 wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

SIGfreed wrote:

Ok, so even though a school is public property they can still ask you leave as if it private? Can someone please list the relevant statutes?

Click to expand...

MCL 123.1102 only restricts certain "Local Units of Government" - those being Cities, Townships, Counties, and Municipalities.

A School District is not listed - and is a completely separate unit of government from a City, County, etc.

Therefore, a School District may restrict carry on property they control.

Click to expand...

Who would have the legal authority to ask you to leave?

Click to expand...

Any authority of the school. Principal, Vice Principal, Superintendant, etc.

The law itself doesn't say - it would be a determination of the courts as to whether or not an individual telling you to leave would be notice of trespass or not.

Click to expand...

I think you're wrong.

If that were the case then sprinklerguy28 would have been told to leave. Instead they found that what he does is lawful and they can't do anything about it.

Read his thread again. It's pretty cut and dry. No gray areas at all.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/40511.html

Click to expand...

Just because they don't know they can ask him to leave, doesn't mean that they can't ask him to leave.

I agree that Sprinklerguy was not breaking any laws.

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You don't think that if they could have, that the 3 police officers there, including the resident dare officer who most certainly would have had the "authority", would have?

Don't you think that after conferring with the city attorney that if they could have just told him not to do it that they simply would have?

No. They didn't because they knew they couldn't. Simple as that.

And of course he wasn't breaking any laws. That's obvious. If he had been he would have gotten arrested in a NY minute.

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I really believe you to be correct. I wonder what happened from the other post when they supposedly were going to ask the AG for an opinion.

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You don't think that if they could have, that the 3 police officers there, including the resident dare officer who most certainly would have had the "authority", would have?

Don't you think that after conferring with the city attorney that if they could have just told him not to do it that they simply would have?

No. They didn't because they knew they couldn't. Simple as that.

And of course he wasn't breaking any laws. That's obvious. If he had been he would have gotten arrested in a NY minute.

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(3) A general powers school district has all of the rights, powers, and duties expressly stated in this act; may exercise a power implied or incident to a power expressly stated in this act; and, except as provided by law, may exercise a power incidental or appropriate to the performance of a function related to operation of the school district in the interests of public elementary and secondary education in the school district, including, but not limited to, all of the following:

(a) Educating pupils. In addition to educating pupils in grades K-12, this function may include operation of preschool, lifelong education, adult education, community education, training, enrichment, and recreation programs for other persons.

(b) Providing for the safety and welfare of pupils while at school or a school sponsored activity or while en route to or from school or a school sponsored activity.

(c) Acquiring, constructing, maintaining, repairing, renovating, disposing of, or conveying school property, facilities, equipment, technology, or furnishings.

(d) Hiring, contracting for, scheduling, supervising, or terminating employees, independent contractors, and others to carry out school district powers. A school district may indemnify its employees.

(e) Receiving, accounting for, investing, or expending school district money; borrowing money and pledging school district funds for repayment; and qualifying for state school aid and other public or private money from local, regional, state, or federal sources.

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MIKEHUNT wrote:

You don't think that if they could have, that the 3 police officers there, including the resident dare officer who most certainly would have had the "authority", would have?

Don't you think that after conferring with the city attorney that if they could have just told him not to do it that they simply would have?

No. They didn't because they knew they couldn't. Simple as that.

And of course he wasn't breaking any laws. That's obvious. If he had been he would have gotten arrested in a NY minute.

Click to expand...

Like I said, the act itself is lawful. I don't believe a school district to be preempted, however.

MCL 380.11 is the law that organizes a school district as a local unit of government created directly by the State. As such, it would need to be explicitly listed by MCL 123.1102 in order to be preempted by the state.

Further, MCL 380.11a(3) provides:

(3) A general powers school district has all of the rights, powers, and duties expressly stated in this act; may exercise a power implied or incident to a power expressly stated in this act; and, except as provided by law, may exercise a power incidental or appropriate to the performance of a function related to operation of the school district in the interests of public elementary and secondary education in the school district, including, but not limited to, all of the following:

(a) Educating pupils. In addition to educating pupils in grades K-12, this function may include operation of preschool, lifelong education, adult education, community education, training, enrichment, and recreation programs for other persons.

(b) Providing for the safety and welfare of pupils while at school or a school sponsored activity or while en route to or from school or a school sponsored activity.

(c) Acquiring, constructing, maintaining, repairing, renovating, disposing of, or conveying school property, facilities, equipment, technology, or furnishings.

(d) Hiring, contracting for, scheduling, supervising, or terminating employees, independent contractors, and others to carry out school district powers. A school district may indemnify its employees.

(e) Receiving, accounting for, investing, or expending school district money; borrowing money and pledging school district funds for repayment; and qualifying for state school aid and other public or private money from local, regional, state, or federal sources.

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In other words, unless the school district makes carrying on its property against the rules - it's a lawful act. If they make it against the rules, they may ask you to leave.

They may also ask anyone to leave at any time in order to "provide the safety and welfare of pupils" as authorized by state law.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

MIKEHUNT wrote:

You don't think that if they could have, that the 3 police officers there, including the resident dare officer who most certainly would have had the "authority", would have?

Don't you think that after conferring with the city attorney that if they could have just told him not to do it that they simply would have?

No. They didn't because they knew they couldn't. Simple as that.

And of course he wasn't breaking any laws. That's obvious. If he had been he would have gotten arrested in a NY minute.

Click to expand...

Like I said, the act itself is lawful. I don't believe a school district to be preempted, however.

MCL 380.11 is the law that organizes a school district as a local unit of government created directly by the State. As such, it would need to be explicitly listed by MCL 123.1102 in order to be preempted by the state.

Further, MCL 380.11a(3) provides:

(3) A general powers school district has all of the rights, powers, and duties expressly stated in this act; may exercise a power implied or incident to a power expressly stated in this act; and, except as provided by law, may exercise a power incidental or appropriate to the performance of a function related to operation of the school district in the interests of public elementary and secondary education in the school district, including, but not limited to, all of the following:

(a) Educating pupils. In addition to educating pupils in grades K-12, this function may include operation of preschool, lifelong education, adult education, community education, training, enrichment, and recreation programs for other persons.

(b) Providing for the safety and welfare of pupils while at school or a school sponsored activity or while en route to or from school or a school sponsored activity.

(c) Acquiring, constructing, maintaining, repairing, renovating, disposing of, or conveying school property, facilities, equipment, technology, or furnishings.

(d) Hiring, contracting for, scheduling, supervising, or terminating employees, independent contractors, and others to carry out school district powers. A school district may indemnify its employees.

(e) Receiving, accounting for, investing, or expending school district money; borrowing money and pledging school district funds for repayment; and qualifying for state school aid and other public or private money from local, regional, state, or federal sources.

Click to expand...

In other words, unless the school district makes carrying on its property against the rules - it's a lawful act. If they make it against the rules, they may ask you to leave.

They may also ask anyone to leave at any time in order to "provide the safety and welfare of pupils" as authorized by state law.

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So they can enact "rules" to prevent lawful activities?

I hardly think so.

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The school board makes Policy and Regulation.springerdave.

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springerdave wrote:

The school board makes Policy and Regulation.springerdave.

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But they don't make laws.

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Zukirider wrote:

i have heard enough guess's some what to CITE something to back there statements?

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http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Article-VII-28

§ 28 Governmental functions and powers; joint administration, costs and credits, transfers.
Sec. 28.

The legislature by general law shall authorize two or more counties, townships, cities, villages or districts, or any combination thereof among other things to: enter into contractual undertakings or agreements with one another or with the state or with any combination thereof for the joint administration of any of the functions or powers which each would have the power to perform separately; share the costs and responsibilities of functions and services with one another or with the state or with any combination thereof which each would have the power to perform separately; transfer functions or responsibilities to one another or any combination thereof upon the consent of each unit involved; cooperate with one another and with state government; lend their credit to one another or any combination thereof as provided by law in connection with any authorized publicly owned undertaking.

Any other provision of this constitution notwithstanding, an officer or employee of the state or any such unit of government or subdivision or agency thereof, except members of the legislature, may serve on or with any governmental body established for the purposes set forth in this section and shall not be required to relinquish his office or employment by reason of such service.

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There's another section of the law where this is defined more clearly, but this is how it's stated in the MI Constitution.

Basically, if any two sections of government enter into a joint operation, the joint operation is only able to exercise the powers that the two separate organizations would have had.

This is so that a School District and, say, a county, cannot join together to make Ann Arbor Public Schools Police - as the district does not have the power to have its own police force.

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MIKEHUNT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

MIKEHUNT wrote:

You don't think that if they could have, that the 3 police officers there, including the resident dare officer who most certainly would have had the "authority", would have?

Don't you think that after conferring with the city attorney that if they could have just told him not to do it that they simply would have?

No. They didn't because they knew they couldn't. Simple as that.

And of course he wasn't breaking any laws. That's obvious. If he had been he would have gotten arrested in a NY minute.

Click to expand...

Like I said, the act itself is lawful. I don't believe a school district to be preempted, however.

MCL 380.11 is the law that organizes a school district as a local unit of government created directly by the State. As such, it would need to be explicitly listed by MCL 123.1102 in order to be preempted by the state.

Further, MCL 380.11a(3) provides:

(3) A general powers school district has all of the rights, powers, and duties expressly stated in this act; may exercise a power implied or incident to a power expressly stated in this act; and, except as provided by law, may exercise a power incidental or appropriate to the performance of a function related to operation of the school district in the interests of public elementary and secondary education in the school district, including, but not limited to, all of the following:

(a) Educating pupils. In addition to educating pupils in grades K-12, this function may include operation of preschool, lifelong education, adult education, community education, training, enrichment, and recreation programs for other persons.

(b) Providing for the safety and welfare of pupils while at school or a school sponsored activity or while en route to or from school or a school sponsored activity.

(c) Acquiring, constructing, maintaining, repairing, renovating, disposing of, or conveying school property, facilities, equipment, technology, or furnishings.

(d) Hiring, contracting for, scheduling, supervising, or terminating employees, independent contractors, and others to carry out school district powers. A school district may indemnify its employees.

(e) Receiving, accounting for, investing, or expending school district money; borrowing money and pledging school district funds for repayment; and qualifying for state school aid and other public or private money from local, regional, state, or federal sources.

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In other words, unless the school district makes carrying on its property against the rules - it's a lawful act. If they make it against the rules, they may ask you to leave.

They may also ask anyone to leave at any time in order to "provide the safety and welfare of pupils" as authorized by state law.

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So they can enact "rules" to prevent lawful activities?

I hardly think so.

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According to the citation posted above - the district is granted broad authority over the property it controls, meaning they can pretty much make any rule stricter than state law if they so desire. They are not, however, allowed to make ordinances like a county or city is able to do (Ordinances are able to have punishments, like fines and jailtime) - just rules - meaning the worst that can happen is that they can tell you to leave, or they'll call the cops on you for trespass.

Please cite to the contrary if you think I'm wrong. Case law could prove your point, but I haven't found any that does.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

MIKEHUNT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

MIKEHUNT wrote:

You don't think that if they could have, that the 3 police officers there, including the resident dare officer who most certainly would have had the "authority", would have?

Don't you think that after conferring with the city attorney that if they could have just told him not to do it that they simply would have?

No. They didn't because they knew they couldn't. Simple as that.

And of course he wasn't breaking any laws. That's obvious. If he had been he would have gotten arrested in a NY minute.

Click to expand...

Like I said, the act itself is lawful. I don't believe a school district to be preempted, however.

MCL 380.11 is the law that organizes a school district as a local unit of government created directly by the State. As such, it would need to be explicitly listed by MCL 123.1102 in order to be preempted by the state.

Further, MCL 380.11a(3) provides:

(3) A general powers school district has all of the rights, powers, and duties expressly stated in this act; may exercise a power implied or incident to a power expressly stated in this act; and, except as provided by law, may exercise a power incidental or appropriate to the performance of a function related to operation of the school district in the interests of public elementary and secondary education in the school district, including, but not limited to, all of the following:

(a) Educating pupils. In addition to educating pupils in grades K-12, this function may include operation of preschool, lifelong education, adult education, community education, training, enrichment, and recreation programs for other persons.

(b) Providing for the safety and welfare of pupils while at school or a school sponsored activity or while en route to or from school or a school sponsored activity.

(c) Acquiring, constructing, maintaining, repairing, renovating, disposing of, or conveying school property, facilities, equipment, technology, or furnishings.

(d) Hiring, contracting for, scheduling, supervising, or terminating employees, independent contractors, and others to carry out school district powers. A school district may indemnify its employees.

(e) Receiving, accounting for, investing, or expending school district money; borrowing money and pledging school district funds for repayment; and qualifying for state school aid and other public or private money from local, regional, state, or federal sources.

Click to expand...

In other words, unless the school district makes carrying on its property against the rules - it's a lawful act. If they make it against the rules, they may ask you to leave.

They may also ask anyone to leave at any time in order to "provide the safety and welfare of pupils" as authorized by state law.

Click to expand...

So they can enact "rules" to prevent lawful activities?

I hardly think so.

Click to expand...

According to the citation posted above - the district is granted broad authority over the property it controls, meaning they can pretty much make any rule stricter than state law if they so desire. They are not, however, allowed to make ordinances like a county or city is able to do (Ordinances are able to have punishments, like fines and jailtime) - just rules - meaning the worst that can happen is that they can tell you to leave, or they'll call the cops on you for trespass.

Please cite to the contrary if you think I'm wrong. Case law could prove your point, but I haven't found any that does.

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I've already cited sprinklerguy28's experience.

That pretty much sums it up.

His experience vs. your opinion.

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