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Thread: LEO Encounter at HIGHLAND COFFEE

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    As I was leaving there tonight at closing time I got pulled aside by "Officer Larry" aka the "HCC or Highland Coffee Cop". ( he's there for extended periods just about everyday. ) I spoke to him last week asking his thoughts on OC and he was supportive.. during that conversation.. (I was not OCing at that particular time.)

    He wanted to let me know that there had been some complaints made to the owner of HC about a customer OCing.. the owner had gone to Officer Larry about it and he advised he'd keep a look out. He was very surprised to discover it was me.. He started in with the "Yeah.. it's your right.. and I support it but....." statements.. he advised that b/c it was Private Property it wasn't allowed etc etc.. I pointed out it's Private Property.. open to the public.. let's be clear on that.. he waffled on that point.. shrugged it off to advise that, "the main issue here is that someone's going to call in a MWAG and the responding officer may not be me but some rookie who doesn't know the laws as well as you and I.. then they take you downtown for Disorderly and they take your gun.. and you won't get it back.." (Yes I know it isn't as simple as that to make the Disorderly conduct charge stick.. KRS 525.060 etc.. but he was being cool so I just nodded along mmhmming..)

    He went on to say, "The owner probably isn't even aware that it's you b/c *I just* noticed your gun a few minutes ago as you came in and walked past me. I had asked the owner what did he want to happen once I saw who it was and he (the owner) said he doesn't want weapons in the place.."

    (There is a sign posted.. but it says no concealed.. regardless of the legality of the sign.)

    (edit on Tues: The sign has changed.. it now say no concealed or unconcealed deadly weapons..)

    I then stated that I needed to hear that from the owner.. and he just gave me that exasperated look and said "I'm telling you on his behalf.."

    This puts me in a sticky situation here.. you need to understand that I wasn't really taking anything he said as threatening or intimidating.. (That last part maybe a little..) He was mainly just a regular at the coffee-shop trying to make sure another regular at the coffee-shop didn't get hassled by his overly enthusiastic under-informed colleagues.. he was very clear on that.. he said "Look.. you seem like a good guy.. you're here everyday.. I've seen you interacting with the staff.. it's obvious they know you by name.. I'd just hate to see you put thru alot of legal hassle."

    It's true I'm there in the evenings most days of the week.. it's a hangout for not only myself but a good portion of my friends.. (None of whom are gun owners to my knowledge.. to them it's a non issue) Problem is... if I stick to my guns.. (heh) and I end up barred or I just refuse to go there out of principle.. (There's a Starbuck's right up the road..) I really doubt my entire crowd of friends are going to want to uproot over what is to them a non issue.

    Is this a "pick your battles" moment?

    I think it's gonna take me speaking to the owner.. perhaps once he see's that it was me being reported he'll realize that "Everyday customer who spends on average $6.50 per visit for coffee and baked good trumps random anti gunner customer who's never been there before and probably hasn't been back since".

    Regardless it's empty holster time till I get this resolved.

    Agree or not I'm not going to file a complaint on Officer Larry b/c he was just being straight with me about how most LEO's will react..

    -Adam

    PS.. on a side note it took me a while reading these forums to read "LEO" as "Law Enforcement Officer" and not "Louisville Eccentric Observer" (A local newspaper for those of you not in the 502..)

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    Hello. Once the place was posted "No Concealed Carry" I would have been working to get the sign down. If that failed, first thing to do would've been totell the owner WHY I wasn't coming back, and just found a new hangout. Socializing with friends be damned that gun on my hip is more important than spending chit-chat time with them, to be very blunt about it.

    For me, chances are that this would have been settled one way or another by the time that LEO came into the picture.

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    That whole scenario offends at least three long-held principles of mine....

    1) Attempted behavioral modifications directed toward me by anyone other than my employer, or my wife, arouse my considerable ire...in that situation, I would have been a loyal STARBUCKS customer this evening.

    2) As young parents, my wife and I took our roles seriously. We decided earlyon that if our kids weren't welcome at a place, a function, or a gathering, no problem, we wouldn't go ourselves, plain and simple. And nowadays, with the law on our side, increasingly I feel as if my gun isn't welcome, I won't go unless it's unavoidable....and would be a STARBUCKS customer this evening.

    3) If, as a business, you act as if you don't want my business, or as if my business isn't of any great importance to you, no problem. I'll take my business elsewhere....and would be a STARBUCKS customer this evening.

    Julabee Jones

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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Kriegsammler wrote:

    I think it's gonna take me speaking to the owner.. perhaps once he see's that it was me being reported he'll realize that "Everyday customer who spends on average $6.50 per visit for coffee and baked good trumps random anti gunner customer who's never been there before and probably hasn't been back since".

    Agree or not I'm not going to file a complaint on Officer Larry b/c he was just being straight with me about how most LEO's will react..

    -Adam
    I agree. Talk to the owner yourself about your conversation with the officer. If he confirms it and personally tells you that he doesn't want weapons in his business, concealed or otherwise, let him know he just lost a regular customer.

    I also agree with your opinion of the officer. He sounded (via your description) like a guy who didn't even want to have to start that conversation. No reason to beef him for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    If you do talk to the owner, let him know that there is a strong potential for you to bring more customers to his store. I support Starbucks because they respect my right to do what it legal. I could easily be swayed to go somewhere local, by having someone else show me the same respect. FWIW I've never had a problem in the Highlands except for a gas station clerk who volunteered that he'd rather defend himself from an armed assailant with his hands than have a firearm, but he made no attempt to run me out of the store.

    There is no excuse for an uninformed officer. Rookie or not, they know, and they know that harassment could cost them their jobs.

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    Bottom line, it's private property and you can take your business elsewhere if he won't relent.

    The LEO was being very diplomatic as far as I can tell from your story.

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    I'll give you all an update once I speak with the owner..

    Anyone local who would care to stop in and advise the Mgr on duty that they are losing business by barring legally carrying citizens would be appreciatted..

    -Adam

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    As a small side note, make sure that you make it clear to the manager, if he refuses to understand, that Starbucks is close by and he stands to lose more money than he makes by refusing service to gun owners.

    Generally when people in business refuse to see the obvious, the only way to get through to them is in the wallet via loss of income due to their lack of good judgement.
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    neuroblades wrote:
    As a small side note, make sure that you make it clear to the manager, if he refuses to understand, that Starbucks is close by and he stands to lose more money than he makes by refusing service to gun owners.¬*

    Generally when people in business refuse to see the obvious, the only way to get through to them is in the wallet via loss of income due to their lack of good judgement.
    Just make sure you are dressed appropriately. I find a shirt like this sums it up...

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/41398.html

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    Kriegsammler wrote:
    I'll give you all an update once I speak with the owner..

    Anyone local who would care to stop in and advise the Mgr on duty that they are losing business by barring legally carrying citizens would be appreciatted..

    -Adam
    Pass along the information to me for the location and I'll gladly stop in and have a discussion with the manager. My best guess from this is that you're talking about Heine Bros. on Eastern and Bardstown . . . but, I could be wrong.

    Reg

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    What's the latest?

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    MgoBlue wrote:
    ...best guess from this is that you're talking about Heine Bros. on Eastern and Bardstown . . . but, I could be wrong.

    Reg
    Actually.. It's "Highland Coffee Co." down past Mid-city Mall.. shares the same parking lot with the Blockbuster Video. and yes.. please stop in!

    @ BB62.. still no resolution.. I've been drafting an email.. trying to figure the best way to get my point across.. something I've never been the best at doing. In the meantime I've been "Open Carrying" my empty Military/Police style Walther P-38 holster that.. when the flap is closed.. is there a gun? maybe.. maybe not.. If they were to ask.. I'd show them.. and they would grumble and walk away.. (so far they haven't asked.. but I still get looks from other customers.. some approving.. some not.)

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    If no one has said anything after you OC'ing what could be a possible gun, perhaps it was just Officer Larry that has an issue with you carrying and not the manager.

    If you have visited the coffee shop and the manager in question is there and has seen you and the "gun" and not said anything then there's a pretty good chance that it wasn't really him that had the issue, but "Larry" instead.

    If an officer of the law goes to an ower and suggests that due to, patrons carrying guns, that he put up the NFA signs, that could easily explain that issue. I've seen it happen before before.

    Just a thought.

    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    Well to be more accurate.. it's the owners of the business that have the issue and took the compliant from the customer(s)..

    The "managers" and employees don't really care.. b/c they all know me. The owner's don't.. and they are there randomly at odd times.. I just haven't gotten lucky and run into one of them. (husband and wife..)

    -Adam

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    Update but no real news..

    After a month of empty holstering my Walther P-38 military holster at this location.. and working on a well crafted email to send to the owners.. AND saving a month's worth of Starbucks receipts.. I finally emailed the owners 4 days ago..

    No response so far. I'll double check the email address with one of the store employees tomorrow.

    Also considering OCing an Airsoft pistol.. (the sign on the door only prohibits deadly weapons after all.. or is that pushing the wrong way?)

    -Adam

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    OK..

    well.. the email address I was given is correct so.. still no response as of... well.. tonite from the owners. (I checked it this morning before leaving the house..)

    NEW TACTIC.. (love this idea.. and keep in mind I've been a customer at this place for 2-3 years now so I get lots of leeway.. would I do the following just anywhere? maybe.. it depends on how well I know the people behind the counter..)

    I left the house OCing as usual.. except today I felt like having the Walther P-38 on the hip. I also packed a back up "gun" for when I eventually would arrive at Highland Coffee..

    I parked the scooter.. and swapped out the Walther.. for my Original Series Star Trek PHASER prop.. and went on in. All my friends were highly amused.. I started taking some photos with my digicam for a non OC related photo essay I was working on.. I called over one of the head Mgrs to see if she wanted to participate in that.. she *Coldly* told me.. "No.. I have no interest in that.. and dude.. you've been told about bringing the firearm in here.."

    I was taken aback.. (not really b/c I saw her give me the stinkeye from behind the counter across the room.) I asked while turning my hip to her.. "What firearm? it's a Phaser from Star Trek.. It's a toy.. look.. (snap!). I undid the snap and showed it to her.. She was displeased.. A friend standing nearby quipped, "Watch out.. make sure the stun setting is on.." she apparently didn't find it funny.. OH WELL.


    The point of this what some will I'm sure call a juvenile stunt: she assumed I was carrying because my holster had SOMETHING in it.. Now.. see the picture attached.. now picture a Nylon Serpa Blackhawk holster with that sticking out of it. everything forward of and including the trigger button fit in the holster.. the rest sticks out.. it's obvious what it ISN'T. I wasn't breaking the law.. and I wasn't disobeying their sign on the door banning weapons.. because duh.. it's not a weapon.. sheesh the batteries were even dead. I had people asking me all day "Is that a phaser?" and I always answered "yes and here's why I'm Open Carrying it.." followed by general intro to OC and why this location is denying me my 2A rights.. not one single negative reaction and I even passed out a few OC business cards and pamphlets..

    Much better than an open holster protest IMO.. Fight fire with humor.. Campus activists TAKE NOTE!

    Phasers on stun..

    -Adam

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    Now that's funny.

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    Thank you..

    Here's the holster I'm using.. except mine for some reason doesn't have a mag pouch.. :?

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    Annoying the people you want/need to take your side in an issue will not help your cause.

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    OK, I've been following this thread for awhile and I have to inquire Kriegsammler, do you have a CCDW, just curious?
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    Neuro.. I do not.. Can't afford it right now.. it's just not in the budget.

    If I did.. I would just switch to CC upon arrival and it would be to me then a non issue. Something I mentioned in my email to the owner.. ie: I don't have a CCDW at the moment.. but will at some point after which time I will continue to carry.. regardless of their sign. Also that there were at least 3 people (All regulars) who CC'd legally at the store all the time.. and that at least *I* was doing it out in the open..


    Jack House.. Annoying them seems to be the only way to get their attention since they (The owners mind you..) refuse to answer my emails requesting a discussion on the issue. I educated many people today..again not one negative reaction all day except that manager and one manager being miffed isn't really a problem.. she doesn't set the policy. If they ban me.. they lose my business regardless.. and my friends have been showing signs of backing me.. ie.. they'll leave as well so.. you fight for your cause in the ways you are comfortable with and that work for you.. and don't try to armchair quarterback.. mmkay? You don't know these people as well as I do.. there's a fine line I can push before I know it's too far..

    -Adam

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    I can't understand why you don't just go somewhere else and spend your money. It just doesn't make sense to keep pestering and harrassing these people. If they don't want your money then why would you want them to have it?

    You want them to respect your right to be armed but you can't respect their private property rights? You arebeing an ******* and actions like yours make all opencarriers look like ******** too. Shame on you!


    He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself. -- Thomas Paine (1737--1809), Dissertation on First Principles of Government, 1795

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    I'm with TJ, man--minus the shame.

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    Kriegsammler wrote:
    Neuro.. I do not.. Can't afford it right now.. it's just not in the budget.

    If I did.. I would just switch to CC upon arrival and it would be to me then a non issue. Something I mentioned in my email to the owner.. ie: I don't have a CCDW at the moment.. but will at some point after which time I will continue to carry.. regardless of their sign. Also that there were at least 3 people (All regulars) who CC'd legally at the store all the time.. and that at least *I* was doing it out in the open.
    Well this is the time to budget for it because the class will be going up soon, according the CCDW instructors about 200%
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    Neuro: I'll keep that in mind for sure..


    Thos.Jefferson wrote:
    I can't understand why you don't just go somewhere else and spend your money. It just doesn't make sense to keep pestering and harrassing these people. If they don't want your money then why would you want them to have it?
    I DO go somewhere else to spend $$$.. it's called Starbucks.. I'm sure we've ALL heard of Starbucks right? I get any and all espresso drinks and or bakery or snack goods there.. (and consume them there as well..) to the tune of $5.00 - $6.00 per visit. (2-3 times a week..)

    in order to hangout at Highland I have to spend a little $$$ so I do.. to the tune of less than $2.00/day for a coffee or soda as opposed to what used to be $7.00 to $10.00/day for expresso drinks and snack or bakery items before this all started.. something which I pointed out to the owner in my still.. (just checked..) unanswered email.

    Going somewhere else would be akin to... changing schools in the middle of the final term.. I'd be the new guy trying to break into a new social circle.. which is something that takes me FOREVER to be successful at doing.. so I'd really rather not have to if I can avoid it.

    You want them to respect your right to be armed but you can't respect their private property rights?
    How am I disrespecting their private property rights?

    let's check the short list:

    1) Have they asked me to leave? NO!
    2) Have I brought my holstered pistol in or on the premises? NO!

    You are¬*being an @#$% and actions like yours make all opencarriers look like @#$%s too. Shame on you!
    Your opinion.. and you are not here. You don't know the situation as I do.. My worldview is full of gray areas where it seems you can only view it in black and white.

    I'm WITH you.. as long as I only do it YOUR way.. well F that..

    If this was just some random store that denied me entry for OC and not a place where I spend a good amount of time on a weekly basis.. a place where I'm on a first name basis with all of the employees and regulars... then my tactics would be more what you would do.

    IE: boycott.. place the name of the business on an OC unfriendly list.. email the owner.. show them my receipts of $$$ spent with a competitor and then be on my way.

    Because of my time and social energy invested at this location.. I have chosen a different tact.. a tact that has been well received by everyone I've come into contact with about it.. except one Manager who I would describe as "annoyed she didn't get the joke b/c she sometimes doesn't understand my very dry sense of humor"

    5 min later when I bought a Jones Soda she was all "sweetness and light" (she's actually a very nice person..) so Shame on you for judging me without knowing the big picture.

    Anyone else care to chime in with negative comments so I can point out your error?

    -Adam

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