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LEO Encounter at HIGHLAND COFFEE

Kriegsammler

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Apr 6, 2010
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Louisville, Kentucky, USA
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Neuro.. I do not.. Can't afford it right now.. it's just not in the budget.

If I did.. I would just switch to CC upon arrival and it would be to me then a non issue. Something I mentioned in my email to the owner.. ie: I don't have a CCDW at the moment.. but will at some point after which time I will continue to carry.. regardless of their sign. Also that there were at least 3 people (All regulars) who CC'd legally at the store all the time.. and that at least *I* was doing it out in the open..


Jack House.. Annoying them seems to be the only way to get their attention since they (The owners mind you..) refuse to answer my emails requesting a discussion on the issue. I educated many people today..again not one negative reaction all day except that manager and one manager being miffed isn't really a problem.. she doesn't set the policy. If they ban me.. they lose my business regardless.. and my friends have been showing signs of backing me.. ie.. they'll leave as well so.. you fight for your cause in the ways you are comfortable with and that work for you.. and don't try to armchair quarterback.. mmkay? You don't know these people as well as I do.. there's a fine line I can push before I know it's too far..

-Adam
 

Thos.Jefferson

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just south of the river, Kentucky, USA
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I can't understand why you don't just go somewhere else and spend your money. It just doesn't make sense to keep pestering and harrassing these people. If they don't want your money then why would you want them to have it?

You want them to respect your right to be armed but you can't respect their private property rights? You arebeing an asshole and actions like yours make all opencarriers look like assholes too. Shame on you!
 

neuroblades

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, Kentucky, USA
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Kriegsammler wrote:
Neuro.. I do not.. Can't afford it right now.. it's just not in the budget.

If I did.. I would just switch to CC upon arrival and it would be to me then a non issue. Something I mentioned in my email to the owner.. ie: I don't have a CCDW at the moment.. but will at some point after which time I will continue to carry.. regardless of their sign. Also that there were at least 3 people (All regulars) who CC'd legally at the store all the time.. and that at least *I* was doing it out in the open.
Well this is the time to budget for it because the class will be going up soon, according the CCDW instructors about 200%
 

Kriegsammler

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Neuro: I'll keep that in mind for sure..


Thos.Jefferson wrote:
I can't understand why you don't just go somewhere else and spend your money. It just doesn't make sense to keep pestering and harrassing these people. If they don't want your money then why would you want them to have it?

I DO go somewhere else to spend $$$.. it's called Starbucks.. I'm sure we've ALL heard of Starbucks right? I get any and all espresso drinks and or bakery or snack goods there.. (and consume them there as well..) to the tune of $5.00 - $6.00 per visit. (2-3 times a week..)

in order to hangout at Highland I have to spend a little $$$ so I do.. to the tune of less than $2.00/day for a coffee or soda as opposed to what used to be $7.00 to $10.00/day for expresso drinks and snack or bakery items before this all started.. something which I pointed out to the owner in my still.. (just checked..) unanswered email.

Going somewhere else would be akin to... changing schools in the middle of the final term.. I'd be the new guy trying to break into a new social circle.. which is something that takes me FOREVER to be successful at doing.. so I'd really rather not have to if I can avoid it.

You want them to respect your right to be armed but you can't respect their private property rights?

How am I disrespecting their private property rights?

let's check the short list:

1) Have they asked me to leave? NO!
2) Have I brought my holstered pistol in or on the premises? NO!

You are being an @#$% and actions like yours make all opencarriers look like @#$%s too. Shame on you!

Your opinion.. and you are not here. You don't know the situation as I do.. My worldview is full of gray areas where it seems you can only view it in black and white.

I'm WITH you.. as long as I only do it YOUR way.. well F that..

If this was just some random store that denied me entry for OC and not a place where I spend a good amount of time on a weekly basis.. a place where I'm on a first name basis with all of the employees and regulars... then my tactics would be more what you would do.

IE: boycott.. place the name of the business on an OC unfriendly list.. email the owner.. show them my receipts of $$$ spent with a competitor and then be on my way.

Because of my time and social energy invested at this location.. I have chosen a different tact.. a tact that has been well received by everyone I've come into contact with about it.. except one Manager who I would describe as "annoyed she didn't get the joke b/c she sometimes doesn't understand my very dry sense of humor"

5 min later when I bought a Jones Soda she was all "sweetness and light" (she's actually a very nice person..) so Shame on you for judging me without knowing the big picture.

Anyone else care to chime in with negative comments so I can point out your error?

-Adam
 

Packer fan

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I will say IMO it does take time to convince people.

The owner feels safe behind the signs. I didn't read all your post but have you talked to her about places that have been robbed despite the no gun signs? Have you approached her to ask her why do you feel safe behind the signs and howdo those signs stop anyonebent on robbing the place?
Some banks have no gun signs and yet they get robbed. Shehas money too and the BGisn't going to care how or where he gets it.


She can think of you as security http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum60/39028.html


Just trying to help, good luck.
 

Thos.Jefferson

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Kriegsammler wrote:
Neuro: I'll keep that in mind for sure..


Thos.Jefferson wrote:
I can't understand why you don't just go somewhere else and spend your money. It just doesn't make sense to keep pestering and harrassing these people. If they don't want your money then why would you want them to have it?
I DO go somewhere else to spend $$$.. it's called Starbucks.. I'm sure we've ALL heard of Starbucks right? I get any and all espresso drinks and or bakery or snack goods there.. (and consume them there as well..) to the tune of $5.00 - $6.00 per visit. (2-3 times a week..)

in order to hangout at Highland I have to spend a little $$$ so I do.. to the tune of less than $2.00/day for a coffee or soda as opposed to what used to be $7.00 to $10.00/day for expresso drinks and snack or bakery items before this all started.. something which I pointed out to the owner in my still.. (just checked..) unanswered email.

Going somewhere else would be akin to... changing schools in the middle of the final term.. I'd be the new guy trying to break into a new social circle.. which is something that takes me FOREVER to be successful at doing.. so I'd really rather not have to if I can avoid it.
You want them to respect your right to be armed but you can't respect their private property rights?
How am I disrespecting their private property rights?

let's check the short list:

1) Have they asked me to leave? NO!
2) Have I brought my holstered pistol in or on the premises? NO!
You arebeing an @#$% and actions like yours make all opencarriers look like @#$%s too. Shame on you!
Your opinion.. and you are not here. You don't know the situation as I do.. My worldview is full of gray areas where it seems you can only view it in black and white.

I'm WITH you.. as long as I only do it YOUR way.. well F that..

If this was just some random store that denied me entry for OC and not a place where I spend a good amount of time on a weekly basis.. a place where I'm on a first name basis with all of the employees and regulars... then my tactics would be more what you would do.

IE: boycott.. place the name of the business on an OC unfriendly list.. email the owner.. show them my receipts of $$$ spent with a competitor and then be on my way.

Because of my time and social energy invested at this location.. I have chosen a different tact.. a tact that has been well received by everyone I've come into contact with about it.. except one Manager who I would describe as "annoyed she didn't get the joke b/c she sometimes doesn't understand my very dry sense of humor"

5 min later when I bought a Jones Soda she was all "sweetness and light" (she's actually a very nice person..) so Shame on you for judging me without knowing the big picture.

Anyone else care to chime in with negative comments so I can point out your error?

-Adam
First thing's first, I couldn't care less how, when or where you carry. You and I are not "with" one another because I carry for the safety of me and mine,you on the other hand seem to carry for "style". What makes me come to this conclusion? The "carry" of the phaser. If you were truly arming your-self for safety then you would not frequent any business that does not allow you to be armed.

How are you not respecting the property rights of owners of the shop? Let's see, could it be the fact that you can't take NO for an answer? You were told that the owner of the coffee shop prefers that you did not carry a weapon on their property but that just isn't good enough for you. You, like a child just have to have your way. A phaser in you holster? PUHLEEAASE! Just how old are you? 13?

When government tries to curtail our rights it is injustice and should be protested vigerously. When a private property owner does it ,well I'm sorry to say it but you just have to lump it because his rights to conduct business on his own property as he sees fit outweigh your rights.

Once again I say SHAME ON YOU!!! Your actions paint OCers as a bunch of whiny, exhibitionist who just can't take NO for an answer.


edited for sp.
 

Kriegsammler

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Louisville, Kentucky, USA
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Thos.Jefferson wrote:
Awww, sensitive much?


Not really.. no.

Are you going to stoop to name calling now to try and get your point across?

Since it seems then by your continued responses that you *do* care how, when or where I carry.. I feel I must respond to your last post.

 First thing's first, I couldn't care less how, when or where you carry.

covered.. you do or you'd drop it.

You and I are not "with" one another because I carry for the safety of me and mine,you on the other hand seem to carry for "style".

incorrect.

What makes me come to this conclusion?

Kinda curious about that.. sure.

The "carry" of the phaser. If you were truly arming your-self for safety then you would not frequent any business that does not allow you to be armed.

1st of all.. I started OCing my .38 revolver or my Walther P-38 mainly as a means of deterring scooter jackers in the parts of town that I have to ride thru on my daily routine.. mainly old louisville and the south end.. had it happen almost 2x before I started OCing.. It hasn't happened since. The added benefit is..That other people on the road no longer drive aggressively at me.. cutting me off.. riding my bumper.. in other words, F@cking with me in traffic just b/c they have a larger vehicle (or they ride a Sport Bike.. they're the worst..) For some reason.. a reason I call "A LARGE GUN ON MY HIP" they've stopped..

(Again not that I'd draw on someone for road rage unless they were literally trying to run me down..)

I carry elsewhere OFF the scooter if I feel it's warranted.. if not.. I put the gun in the underseat locked storage and then I sit where I can keep an eye on the scooter at all times. I always carry into gas stations regardless of area of town or time of day.. I carry into most Restaurants depending on if a bar is part of it.. I just avoid the whole gun with alcohol equation altogether regardless of what the law actually is on that question.. just don't want to be on the wrong side of anything on that issue. At this coffee shop.. it's in the middle of the Highlands for crissake.. Not exactly a high crime area.. I would *like* to remain armed.. but I'm not so paranoid about it that I mind being disarmed if I can use it for an opportunity for on going education about OC. You disagree with my method.. fine. I get it.

You're wrong. but I get what you are trying to say.

Problem is you don't have the benefit of knowing the situation fully.. b/c you aren't there. See what I've said previously about whether or not my tactics would be different if it was just some random store.. I assume you've read everything I've had to say instead of knee jerk reacting.?

How are you not respecting the property rights of owners of the shop? Let's see, could it be the fact that you can't take NO for an answer? You were told that the owner of the coffee shop prefers that you did not carry a weapon on their property but that just isn't good enough for you. You, like a child just have to have your way. A phaser in you holster? PUHLEEAASE! Just how old are you? 13?

So.. all those other OCers that have worked to get signs removed or policies changed at other Privately Owned businesses like.. Walmart.. Cabelas, More Banks than I can name,  All the restaurants in all the threads all over the forum..

I guess they should have just taken NO for an answer right? I guess they're all like children who just have to have their way.. is that what you are saying?

Because it sure sounds like it.

And incidentally.. I'm 36. I don't see the phaser as really all that different than an open holster protest.. in fact it's better b/c.. People ask about it.. and then I get an opportunity to educate random strangers about OC..

When government tries to curtail our rights it is injustice and should be protested vigerously.

agreed.

When a private property owner does it ,well I'm sorry to say it but you just have to lump it because his rights to conduct business on his own property as he sees fit outweigh your rights.

and we're back to the point I made above about all the OCers and the Walmarts, and the Cabelas etc..

Sure he has the right to conduct his/her business on his own property as they see fit.. I'm not saying they don't..

What I AM saying.. is that I disagree with their policy on banning weapons.. and I (we) have something called the Constitution that allows me freedom of speech to try and convince them to change it.

Once again I say SHAME ON YOU!!! Your actions paint OCers as a bunch of whiny, exhibitionist who just can't take NO for an answer.

I'm sorry you disagree with my methods.. I truly am.. But I also think you are judging me without knowing the full picture.. a picture you'd have to see in action to see how well it works and really how inoffensive it is.

Will it get them to change their mind?

Time will tell.


Do many random people get educated daily on OC?

Yup.

I call this a win for that alone regardless of the other. :celebrate



NEXT!

-Adam
 

aegri_mentis

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As I was leaving there tonight at closing time I got pulled aside by "Officer Larry" aka the "HCC or Highland Coffee Cop". ( he's there for extended periods just about everyday. ) I spoke to him last week asking his thoughts on OC and he was supportive.. during that conversation.. (I was not OCing at that particular time.)

He wanted to let me know that there had been some complaints made to the owner of HC about a customer OCing.. the owner had gone to Officer Larry about it and he advised he'd keep a look out. He was very surprised to discover it was me.. He started in with the "Yeah.. it's your right.. and I support it but....." statements.. he advised that b/c it was Private Property it wasn't allowed etc etc.. I pointed out it's Private Property.. open to the public.. let's be clear on that.. he waffled on that point.. shrugged it off to advise that, "the main issue here is that someone's going to call in a MWAG and the responding officer may not be me but some rookie who doesn't know the laws as well as you and I.. then they take you downtown for Disorderly and they take your gun.. and you won't get it back.." (Yes I know it isn't as simple as that to make the Disorderly conduct charge stick.. KRS 525.060 etc.. but he was being cool so I just nodded along mmhmming..)

He went on to say, "The owner probably isn't even aware that it's you b/c *I just* noticed your gun a few minutes ago as you came in and walked past me. I had asked the owner what did he want to happen once I saw who it was and he (the owner) said he doesn't want weapons in the place.."

(There is a sign posted.. but it says no concealed.. regardless of the legality of the sign.)

(edit on Tues: The sign has changed.. it now say no concealed or unconcealed deadly weapons..)

I then stated that I needed to hear that from the owner.. and he just gave me that exasperated look and said "I'm telling you on his behalf.."

This puts me in a sticky situation here.. you need to understand that I wasn't really taking anything he said as threatening or intimidating.. (That last part maybe a little..) He was mainly just a regular at the coffee-shop trying to make sure another regular at the coffee-shop didn't get hassled by his overly enthusiastic under-informed colleagues.. he was very clear on that.. he said "Look.. you seem like a good guy.. you're here everyday.. I've seen you interacting with the staff.. it's obvious they know you by name.. I'd just hate to see you put thru alot of legal hassle."

It's true I'm there in the evenings most days of the week.. it's a hangout for not only myself but a good portion of my friends.. (None of whom are gun owners to my knowledge.. to them it's a non issue) Problem is... if I stick to my guns.. (heh) and I end up barred or I just refuse to go there out of principle.. (There's a Starbuck's right up the road..) I really doubt my entire crowd of friends are going to want to uproot over what is to them a non issue.

Is this a "pick your battles" moment?

I think it's gonna take me speaking to the owner.. perhaps once he see's that it was me being reported he'll realize that "Everyday customer who spends on average $6.50 per visit for coffee and baked good trumps random anti gunner customer who's never been there before and probably hasn't been back since".

Regardless it's empty holster time till I get this resolved.

Agree or not I'm not going to file a complaint on Officer Larry b/c he was just being straight with me about how most LEO's will react..

-Adam

PS.. on a side note it took me a while reading these forums to read "LEO" as "Law Enforcement Officer" and not "Louisville Eccentric Observer" (A local newspaper for those of you not in the 502..) ;)

This is the kind of thing that actually hurts our cause.
Obviously the officer was there at the behest of the owner. To push the subject with both the officer, who has also been put in the "sticky situation" and the owner is asinine. Additionally, the signs were also put up by the owner. To push the subject by insisting the owner tell you face to face is only forcing an unnecessary confrontation.
Leave the premisis without any further ado, and find a more OC friendly place to spend your money, then report on the subject here, so we can boycott it as well.
 

KRM59

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louisville, Kentucky
Many points of view

Kriegsammler ,
I do respect your point of view on this issue,and as you have been a patron of this buisness of several years and know(as best you can ) most of the employees, I will agree with your wanting to talk over the stuation with the owners, if its only to see if they would be willing to change there polocy. but maybe after this amount of time with no answer from them..it in it's self is there answer.
now as for the phaser thing, i do not think it was or was not hurtful to the OC cause.
don't think i would have done it but i have to say thats some funny s**t.
and to put my humble two cents on it, i think the rest of the posters are offering there views in good faith, weather its right or wrong. the most importaint thing is for us all to stand together.
on another note i am a new OC'er and would be interested in getting a meet up and coffee sometime around the louisville area.
 

UtahRSO

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Lehi, Utah, USA
This is the kind of thing that actually hurts our cause.
Obviously the officer was there at the behest of the owner....

I don't think an officer should be acting as an agent for the owner. I think the OP was correct that the manager him/herself is the person who should be either asking the OP to leave or refrain from carrying. Until the manager makes that request (* or unless the signage is legal warning of trespass), there is no trespassing by the OP, and the officer has no reason to poke his nose in.

* I read the OP's first post, the sign (whether legal notification or not) only specified concealed carry.
 

aegri_mentis

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I don't think an officer should be acting as an agent for the owner. I think the OP was correct that the manager him/herself is the person who should be either asking the OP to leave or refrain from carrying. Until the manager makes that request (* or unless the signage is legal warning of trespass), there is no trespassing by the OP, and the officer has no reason to poke his nose in.

* I read the OP's first post, the sign (whether legal notification or not) only specified concealed carry.

No, the officer was doing exactly what he was called to do. That is what we (I am an LEO) do. We can't pick and chose what calls we go to.
And the LEO was not acting as an agent of the owner, he was acting as an agent of teh Commonwealth, as there easily could have been a Criminal Tresspass violation if the situation had escalated. I can't count the number of times I have had to ask an owner of a business, or a resident in their home, "What do you want me to do?" when it comes to these types of situations. The owner had clearly stated (by signage and by calling the LEA for service) his intent.
 

klloyd

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First, signs dont mean squat here in ky... Other than that, I think the officer did a fine job as Im sure mentis would have done. He was stuck between the law on both sides. Its not against, and trespassing. In this particular situation, I think the officer made the correct decision, the PROPERTY owner had more rights than the gun OCer. I only wish my next LEO encounter goes as well as this one did with a LEO with a cool head and wisdom about the law. He did good! I also agree that it has gone wayyyyy to far and in respect for the shop owner, gun carrying individuals, OC or CC should not go into to his facility. He loses money, or god forbid something bad happens and he realizes he had an opportunity to have an unpaid security force in there that did nothing but drink coffee. I firmly believe that a sign on the door that states guns are welcome would bring more business. Ask Starbucks!
Looking at it form a different point of view, they can not stop me from CCing in there. That is the whole point. If I am CCing, no one will ever see my weapon! There fore, not problem. I Cc in a lot of places I am not suppose to according to signs. If its properly concealed, its like you are not carrying.
BUT we ALL know how opinions go. I just think the owner is in his right, and the LEO did a fine job.
aegri_mentis, dont know where you're from, but I hope its you who stops me. Sounds like you have a head on your shoulders.
 
Last edited:

aegri_mentis

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First, signs dont mean squat here in ky... Other than that, I think the office did a fine job as Im sure mentis would have done. He was stuck between the law on both sides. Its not against, and trespassing. In this particular situation, I think the office made the correct decision, the PROPERTY owner had more rights than the gun OCer. I only wish my next LEO encounter goes as well as this one did with a LEO with a cool head and wisdom about the law. He did good! I also agree that it has gone wayyyyy to far and in respect for the shop owner, gun carrying individuals, OC or CC should not go into to his facility. He loses money, or god forbid something bad happens and he realizes he had an opportunity to have an unpaid security force in there that did nothing but drink coffee. I firmly believe that a sign on the door that states guns are welcome would bring more business. Ask Starbucks!
Looking at it form a different point of view, they can not stop me from CCing in there. That is the whole point. If I am CCing, no one will ever see my weapon! There fore, not problem. I Cc in a lot of places I am not suppose to according to signs. If its properly concealed, its like you are not carrying.
BUT we ALL know how opinions go. I just think the owner is in his right, and the LEO did a fine job.
aegri_mentis, dont know where you're from, but I hope its you who stops me. Sounds like you have a head on your shoulders.

Thanks. I do what I can.
 
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