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Will Everett verdict change how we look at lethal self-defense?

BigDave

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For a few here that proclaim they are so up on our laws miss the basic elements of what transpired in this incident and on what authority the Officer acted in and thus being found not guilty of a crime.

Note RCW 9A.16.040 is for by a public officer, peace officer or person aiding, this RCW does not apply to a citizen acting upon his own accord.
This would appear to be pretty clear but we still have those with out a clue placing themselves into this scenario as the officer, you cannot, citizens do not have the authority to act in the position of an officer, remember it says "Justifiable homicide or use of deadly force by public officer, peace officer, person aiding".

If a citizen acted on their own accord as this Officer did they would have been found guilty as the RCW does not cover them.

RCW 9A.16.040(2) In considering whether to use deadly force under subsection (1)(c) of this section, to arrest or apprehend any person for the commission of any crime, the peace officer must have probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others. Among the circumstances which may be considered by peace officers as a "threat of serious physical harm" are the following:

(a) The suspect threatens a peace officer with a weapon or displays a weapon in a manner that could reasonably be construed as threatening; or

(b) There is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed any crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm.

Under these circumstances deadly force may also be used if necessary to prevent escape from the officer, where, if feasible, some warning is given.
A citizen cannot act under RCW 9A.16.040(2) on the behalf of the public, as it is an immediate threat to life or limb which is covered under RCW 9A.16.020/050.

There is questions as to when to escalate to the next level of force in this situation, easy when the Officer felt threatened or feared for the public at large if he was not stopped.

There is a few here that need to accept the concept that they are not law enforcement they do not enforce the laws, the laws for citizens are for self defense only.

There are those that feel LE should not have more powers then citizens, well as a society we have decided that they need these powers to enforce the laws we have on the books to protect the public at large.

If you found yourself confronting a drunk driver and intervened one would be held to reasonable force and until such time you felt threaten of life or limb could you use deadly force.

The Officer was not found acting in Self Defense does not indicate wrong doing as he was justified in his actions in RCW 9A.16.040.

The issue some say the reason he claimed self defense was to pay for his attorney fees which is a good point although RCW 9A.16.110 does not cover Officers acting within the laws of the State to have his attorney fees paid.

I am wondering where are the resident lawyers are and why they have not addressed this topic?

It is each of our responsibilities to dig into and seek out the information that govern this right so you can make it your own and own it.

:cool: my sunglasses are on for the trolls :cool:
 

sudden valley gunner

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NavyLT wrote:
Respectfully, BigDave, we get it. You don't have to keep posting the same RCW over and over and over again. It's really starting to sound like a broken record. Given our limited knowledge of what actually happened at the scene, some of us are not going to be convinced the officer was justified, or that it is OK for cops to have different rules to shoot people with than regular citizens. Mostly the latter.

We understand a legal double standard exists. That doesn't mean we have to like it.
+1
 

erps

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Given our limited knowledge of what actually happened at the scene, some of us are not going to be convinced the officer was justified,
If you can't be convinced it was justified, then you're convinced it was unjustified, yes? And without benefit of what actually happened at the scene? So much for presumption of innocence. Isn't that violating a core principle of our justice system?
 

Beretta92FSLady

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I would argue that Meade was justified in implementing the force but used excessive force in shooting the man 7 times in the back. Does that make him a murderer, it depends. If the manMeade shot died from the first round or two then all of the subsequent rounds were shot into a dead person. Then again the first five rounds could have not been sufficient because they did not hit vital areas and so he continued to shoot until the threat was stopped.

I do not question why he shot the man, it is obvious IMO that the man was a danger to society and to officer Meade. Seven rounds seems like a lot--some times it takes a handful of rounds to stop a threat.
 

gogodawgs

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BigDave wrote:
For a few here that proclaim they are so up on our laws miss the basic elements of what transpired in this incident and on what authority the Officer acted in and thus being found not guilty of a crime.
Dave,

Actually I think we all get that point. I think some are upset that the officer has that authority. I am not upset. If I didn't make it clear in my posts, I am trying to point out that the officer has that authority and discretion and question the timing of using the escalation of force and whether that was appropriate or not.

And I do not think that a citizen would have to deal with this scenario, it is pretty remote. We do not act as LEO, however if you look at a previous post of mine there are situations that could come forward.
 

BigDave

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Not all do get it gogodawgs, as seen in the earlier post but hopefully they will now. I am sure there will be a couple who still will not get it but we can only try.

If it takes driving home a point a few times sobeit, it was not done to harass but to offer information to be better informed to protect oneself and family.

Where's that watering hole anyways? :cool:

By the way gogodawgs I did not disagree with the majority of what you posted nor your position and felt it was not necessary to repeat what you have written.
 

BigDave

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NavyLT wrote:
Respectfully, BigDave, we get it. You don't have to keep posting the same RCW over and over and over again. It's really starting to sound like a broken record. Given our limited knowledge of what actually happened at the scene, some of us are not going to be convinced the officer was justified, or that it is OK for cops to have different rules to shoot people with than regular citizens. Mostly the latter.

We understand a legal double standard exists. That doesn't mean we have to like it.
Addressing your comment "or that it is OK for cops to have different rules to shoot people with than regular citizens."

I am sure most agree as our lawmakers have there is a need for certain powers be given to LE to enforce the laws.
If they were to be the same as for citizens then one of two things I see coming from this LE not having the tools to do their job in enforcing the laws of our land or we have citizens running around trying to enforce the laws on the books as each of them see it, do you see the down fall here?

It is not that we all have to agree with what laws are on the books but as citizens we need to abide by them like it or not and then take actions to change the laws.
 

amlevin

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gogodawgs wrote:
Question then...

When would it be appropriate for an officer to escalate the force in this situation?

When the car is driving away from the scene at a high rate of speed into a crowd of onlookers?

When the car is put into reverse and headed towards the officers?

Two miles down the road after a head on collision with a family of four?

While it appears in this case the force was escalated sooner than expected, certainly there is a point where it would be warranted.

As I understood the scene, the Corvette had a car on either side, a police car blocking the exit, and a chain link fence in front. In the end, the Corvette was hung up on the parking stop and against the chain link fence. In otherwords, it was not going anywhere. It would seem to a casual observer that all the Officer had to do was step out from between the cars and wait for more officers, perhaps even a Supervisor. TThe only risk then would be to some cars and a fence. What was the urgency that resulted in shooting a sloppy drunk?

It appears that the Jury only said the officer didn't break any laws but wasn't in a situation where his life was threatened, hence the No Self Defense verdict. The Civil Case should be interesting.
 

sudden valley gunner

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amlevin wrote:
It appears that the Jury only said the officer didn't break any laws but wasn't in a situation where his life was threatened, hence the No Self Defense verdict. The Civil Case should be interesting.
So would a citizen get the same verdict? That is the thought provoking question.
 

1245A Defender

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antispam540 wrote:
1245A Defender wrote:
if the cop was afraid of the guy driving away,,, four bullets would have taken out the tires!!!
Except you're never supposed to do that.
oh yea youre right,,, i wouldnt want to violate gun safety rules:banghead:
some one could get hit by a ricoche:banghead:
if the cop had a legal knife maybe he could stab the tires:cuss:
 

Beretta92FSLady

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
So would a citizen get the same verdict? That is the thought provoking question.

Keep in mind that LEO's are employed to respond to a call and inject themselves in to a situation. Private citizens do not have that job, well, we are "legally justified" in self-defense of other around us who are in imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm.

No, the situation would have been different had it been a private citizen.
 

ak56

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1245A Defender wrote:
antispam540 wrote:
1245A Defender wrote:
if the cop was afraid of the guy driving away,,, four bullets would have taken out the tires!!!
Except you're never supposed to do that.
oh yea youre right,,, i wouldnt want to violate gun safety rules:banghead:
some one could get hit by a ricoche:banghead:
if the cop had a legal knife maybe he could stab the tires:cuss:

Do you know how far and fast a car can go on flat tires? Don't you guys ever watch COPS?:p
 
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