LEO encounter

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For what it's worth, I think jonnymcsavage handled the incident pretty much perfectly.

I think the operative words here are that the LEO ASKED to see his ID and CPL ... and he VOLUNTARILY complied. With all due respect Venator ... there's nothing wrong with that. It was his choice, just as it would have been your choice to say: "Officer, with all due respect, I'm under no legal obligation to identify myself, so I respectfully decline."

I actually find it offensive that you automatically equate LEOs with Nazis ... the Nazis murdered my grandparents, and I count a number of LEOs among my friends ... please don't equate the two.

One of the most precious things about having rights is having the CHOICE whether or not to invoke them.

Venator wrote:

jonnymcsavage wrote:

He asked very nicely to see my ID and CPL and I cooperated because he was not trying to be a jerk about the situation, and looked like he was irritated that someone called in an MWAG for nothing.

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God I hate it when people give in and show ID. Oh, he was all, likeSO nice and everything so I showed him my ID.

And it's BS when a LEO says I have to do my job. F*#@ that. The NAZI said the same thing. Guess what it didn't work for them and it won't work for LEOs.

It's simple LEOs take an oath to uphold the Constitution and PROTECT INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS not violate them. If LEO's simply upheld their oath this country would be much better off. LEOs can refuse to uphold immoral laws and policies. Most choose to violate our rights on a daily basis.

In the example above the LEO could have said "I have to check out this call and I see your are just OCing, have a nice day." But he violated you by asking for ID and you let him.

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Johnny, did you get into your truck before the encounter, and if so did the officer see you in the truck?

Bronson

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I was wondering about that too.

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scot623 wrote:

Every encounter is a unique situation. When you take the field with one play in your play book....you'll probably lose the game. I like being open to different situations and having different responses ready. I've not shown ID in one instance and shown it in another. Both times handshakes were exchanged at the end of the encounter. Some people don't what care LEO's think about them, even if it may paint all us OCers with the same brush.

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I like this metaphor, a valid point no doubt. Like I said, I'm not 100% either way, the whole thing just gives me....pause.

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Listen guys and gals. LEOs work for us. They have to assume we are law-abiding until our actions give them RAS or PC. Guess what? Open Carry is lawful and if the only reason a LEO is talking to you is for OCing then the contact is casual and you are free to leave. PERIOD...no ID shown, no LIEN, no gun registration checkis allowed.

Now if you want to give ID to the man then by all means go ahead. My entire point is that many if not all LEOs seem to think you work for them and you HAVE to do what they say. I think it's time we stand up to authority and our rights by being lawful and not complying with an unlawful request.

This does a couple of things. It reminds LEOs that we are free citizens, that they work for us, that we are educated in our rights and reminds the officers that they can't continue to violate anyone's rights because they wear a badge.

By refusing to obey an unlawful police request you have planted a seed into that officers mind and perhaps, just perhaps he will think about it and understand why he took an oath and why he became a police officer in the first place.

Think about what I'm trying to say and if it seems harsh then so be it. We are either free or we are not.

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Venator wrote:

Listen guys and gals.  LEOs work for us.  They have to assume we are law-abiding until out actions give them RAS or PC.  Guess what? Open Carry is lawful and if the only reason a LEO is talking to you is for OCing then the contact is casual and you are free to leave.  PERIOD...no ID shown, no LIEN, no gun registration check is allowed.

Now if you want to give ID to the man then by all means go ahead.  My entire point is that many if not all LEOs seem to think you work for them and you HAVE to do what they say.  I think it's time we stand up to authority and our rights by being lawful and not complying with an unlawful request. 

This does a couple of things.  It reminds LEOs that we are free citizens, that they work for us, that we are educated in our rights and reminds the officers that they can't continue to violate anyone's rights because they wear a badge. 

By refusing to obey an unlawful police request you have planted a seed into that officers mind and perhaps, just perhaps he will think about it and understand why he took an oath and why he became a police officer in the first place.

Think about what I'm trying to say and if it seems harsh then so be it.  We are either free or we are not.

 

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just because you don't surrender who your are don't mean your a dick!

are you a dick for ocing because it like keeping who you are private is "flexing a right" when there is no need to disclose to them who you are.

if standing up for every right i have when either ocing, telling them to get off my property and kick rocks or not disclosing who i am when
I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG!
so be it!!
hello all i'm that dick!

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CrimDoc wrote:

I actually find it offensive that you automatically equate LEOs with Nazis ... the Nazis murdered my grandparents, and I count a number of LEOs among my friends ... please don't equate the two.

One of the most precious things about having rights is having the CHOICE whether or not to invoke them.

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I too had relatives murdered in the holocaust. But I call them like I see them. Do some research. Do you think the NAZI regime started out with ovens and gas chambers? It took years and the slow erosion ofpeoples rights. And the peoplelet them do it. The German police started out as great people I'm sure, just asking nicely for ID, etc. Then they demanded, then they didn't ask any more they just put you on trains.

An extreme example, but I'm trying to paint a picture of what might be in our future if we don't stand up for our individual freedoms immediately.

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Venator wrote:

jonnymcsavage wrote:

He asked very nicely to see my ID and CPL and I cooperated because he was not trying to be a jerk about the situation, and looked like he was irritated that someone called in an MWAG for nothing.

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God I hate it when people give in and show ID. Oh, he was all, likeSO nice and everything so I showed him my ID.

And it's BS when a LEO says I have to do my job. F*#@ that. The NAZI said the same thing. Guess what it didn't work for them and it won't work for LEOs.

It's simple LEOs take an oath to uphold the Constitution and PROTECT INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS not violate them. If LEO's simply upheld their oath this country would be much better off. LEOs can refuse to uphold immoral laws and policies. Most choose to violate our rights on a daily basis.

In the example above the LEO could have said "I have to check out this call and I see your are just OCing, have a nice day." But he violated you by asking for ID and you let him.

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I've seen the responses to Venator, saying chill out and it's ok to be cooperative with requests to show your papers. I, too, am one of the guys who is cooperative with requests frompolite, professional LEOs. But, guess what, Venator is 100% correct in principle and from a practical standpoint!

While I am cooperative with requests to show my papers today, I realize that this state of affairs cannot be allowed to go on permanently.Officers shouldn't (and pretty muchdon't)just pullus over in our carsfor no reasonable causeandask to see our license, registration, and insurance. Officers shouldn't (and pretty muchdon't)just approach us for no reasonable causeabout the cell phone on our belt and ask for ID and proof that we legally possess the phone. Officers shouldn't (and pretty much don't) just approach citizens for no reasonable causeand ask for ID.

If they started doing the above, many citizens would rightfully be alarmed and becomeresistant to such requests. We know how those societies historically have ended up, when the people acquiesce to complying to, "Ihre Papiere, bitte" ("Your papers, please"). So, Venator really is right and we really are wrong, ultimately, in acquiescing to requests, without reasonable cause, to show our papers.

And, I think, resistance to "Ihre Papiere, bitte" is 100% in line with the goal of "normalizing" OC. Just as we expect ourselves to act normally, we should expect and effect LEOs to act normally as well about it. It is not "normal" for an officer to go up to a citizen without reasonable cause and ask for their papers. Therefore, actually, declining the request to show your papers and perhaps discussing with the officer how you are behaving normally but you feel he is not behaving normally toward you, as a citizen conducting themselves lawfully,is an entirely appropriate approach to start taking with LEO interactions.

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I've snipped parts of UCWT's and Venator's responses ... replying to just the "key parts":

UCWT wrote:

Venator wrot

I think it's time we stand up to authority and our rights by being lawful and not complying with an unlawful request.

This does a couple of things. It reminds LEOs that we are free citizens, that they work for us, that we are educated in our rights and reminds the officers that they can't continue to violate anyone's rights because they wear a badge.

Think about what I'm trying to say and if it seems harsh then so be it. We are either free or we are not.

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just because you don't surrender who your are don't mean your a dick!

if standing up for every right i have when either ocing, telling them to get off my property and kick rocks or not disclosing who i am when
hello all i'm that dick!

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Venator: I think the key point of dispute here involves the phrase "unlawful request". A LEO asking to see your ID ISN'T unlawful ... anyone can ask to see anyone else's ID ... I (as a private citizen) can come up to you and ask to see your ID. Now ... you of course have a right to say "No", and if I then threaten you, intimidate you, or try to mislead you into thinking that you have a legal obligation to show me ... THEN (and only then) am I acting unlawfully. A LEO who respectfully asks, and then accepts "no" as an answer, hasn't done anything unlawful.

UCWT: I'm glad you brought up "getting off my property" because I think that brings up a similar (but not gun related issue). If you own 80 acres up North do you have a RIGHT to slap up "private property, no trespassing" signs and snarl at everyone who walks their dog on your property? Sure you do. Would I do it? No. Or forget up North ... my street ends in a cul-de-sac ... at the end of it there's about 20 acres of woods, jointly owned by the 4 or 5 homeowners who surround it ... could THEY have slapped up "private property, no trespassing" signs and kept neighbors like me from walking my dog back there ... sure, it's their right. Do I appreciate the fact that they're NOT dicks and haven't done so ... yes I do.

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I have never had an "encounter" with a LEO.

I'm selfish.

If I'm in a hurry and don't have time for BS I think I'll show some ID (MGO membership card, MOC Charter Membership card or something) just to get the LEO off my back so I can go about my business.

If I have time to screw around...I might ask to see the LEO's permit for his gun, tazer, pepper spray and ASP to make sure they're not committing a crime. edit add...and knife permit.

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My 2 cents worth: It's nice that we are able to have a choice of whether or not to comply. You did comply and that's fine, that was your choice. He was being polite and you politely complied with his request. I can understand that as I am a polite person too.

But, do you think he's being polite because he wants to be friends? No, he fishing for information to see if you have warrants, etc. He's trained to either be confrontational and demanding or to lull you into a false sense of security to get what he wants. They are trained to do this!

Now it's easy for me to say this since I wasn't there, but like Venator says, we need to start standing our ground and understand that they will use any tactic to get info from you. There, that's my 2 cents (although probably 4 cents) worth.

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I do appreciate what you and Venator are saying ... all I'm saying is that it's each individual's right to decide how much (or how little) to cooperate with a LEO. I get a bit irritated by the "What? You showed a LEO your ID? YOU IDIOT! How dare you turn the USA into NAZI GERMARY?!?" crowd.

The traffic stop analogy is also a good one. A lot of LEOs during a traffic stop will ask: "Is there anything illegal in the car?" and if you say say "No." some will then ask "Mind if I have a look?"

Now at that point, I personally would make the choice to say "Actually, I DO mind ... with respect, if I'm not being detained, I'd like to leave and go on with my day." However, there are those who people who figure "Gee, got nothing to hide ... so fine ... I'll let the cop have a quick look."

I don't recommend doing this, and I will (if asked) tell people that they're under no legal obligation to comply with the officer's request ... but am I going to berate someone who's made that decision? No. It's a free country and they're free to choose how to interact with their LEO.



DanM wrote:

I've seen the responses to Venator, saying chill out and it's ok to be cooperative with requests to show your papers. I, too, am one of the guys who is cooperative with requests frompolite, professional LEOs. But, guess what, Venator is 100% correct in principle and from a practical standpoint!

While I am cooperative with requests to show my papers today, I realize that this state of affairs cannot be allowed to go on permanently.Officers shouldn't (and pretty muchdon't)just pullus over in our carsfor no reasonable causeandask to see our license, registration, and insurance. Officers shouldn't (and pretty muchdon't)just approach us for no reasonable causeabout the cell phone on our belt and ask for ID and proof that we legally possess the phone. Officers shouldn't (and pretty much don't) just approach citizens for no reasonable causeand ask for ID.

If they started doing the above, many citizens would rightfully be alarmed and becomeresistant to such requests. We know how those societies historically have ended up, when the people acquiesce to complying to, "Ihre Papiere, bitte" ("Your papers, please"). So, Venator really is right and we really are wrong, ultimately, in acquiescing to requests, without reasonable cause, to show our papers.

And, I think, resistance to "Ihre Papiere, bitte" is 100% in line with the goal of "normalizing" OC. Just as we expect ourselves to act normally, we should expect and effect LEOs to act normally as well about it. It is not "normal" for an officer to go up to a citizen without reasonable cause and ask for their papers. Therefore, actually, declining the request to show your papers and perhaps discussing with the officer how you are behaving normally but you feel he is not behaving normally toward you, as a citizen conducting themselves lawfully,is an entirely appropriate approach to start taking with LEO interactions.

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If a few of you decline, then maybe they will quit asking. I really think it is ridiculous that someone would call 911 over this in the first place, and even more ridiculous that the 911 operator can't ask a few questions and shut it down before the police have to show up. I would hope that the original caller is contacted and the law explained to them, but I'll bet that doesn't happen either.

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I don't know if this will be of value to anyone but not everyone OC's exclusively so........

I don't concern myself about making any decision to provide ID to LE because I CC in addition to OC and... just to cover my arse and not get jammed up over "failure to disclose"... any encounter with LE, other than a passing "Hi" from an officer, is responded to with me disclosing CPL and CC. If the officer has singled me out to talk with... I'm disclosing.

So any request from the officer for my ID/CPL will be complied with.

I will not fool around with the gray area of trying to decide if the encounter is a "social" one... or a "stop"... because there can be a vast difference between where I thought the "social encounter" became a "stop" and where the officer decided it changed.

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CrimDoc wrote:

I do appreciate what you and Venator are saying ... all I'm saying is that it's each individual's right to decide how much (or how little) to cooperate with a LEO. I get a bit irritated by the "What? You showed a LEO your ID? YOU IDIOT! How dare you turn the USA into NAZI GERMARY?!?" crowd.

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I doagree that Venator's objection was brief and strongly worded, but I don't agree that it was anything ad hominem such as yourexample implies. I saw the objective idea and argument in what he said,and I fleshed out my own expression of that idea and argument I perceive in his words. And, he is absolutely correct about our needing to resist "Ihre Papiere, bitte" on at least two grounds, the first specific to OC and the second to defending liberty generally:

• A primarygoalof the OC movement is tonormalize OC in society and with law enforcement. It is not normal for a LEO to approach a citizen conducting themselves lawfully and ask for their papers with no reasonable cause.Therefore, continual compliance with abnormal behaviorisincompatible with attaining the goal of normalization.
• If history has proven anything at all, it is thattyranny in societiesmostly arises not in one fell swoop, but after a long time of bits and pieces of people's liberties, privacy,security, etc.slowly, subtly,and, many times at first, voluntarily given up. Acquiescing to unreasonable requests for your papers is one of those bits and pieces historically shown to be a feature in the rise ofpast and current tyrannical regimes. It should be considered incompatible with liberty and resisted.

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Something else that bothers me about this, the LEO claimed that he knew the laws yet he engaged someone OCing anyway simply because the person was OCing. Do they know the laws and just don't care?

I think I may have used the opportunity to ask him why he engaged me and also asked for ID if he knows the laws.

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flinch wrote:

Something else that bothers me about this, the LEO claimed that he knew the laws yet he engaged someone OCing anyway simply because the person was OCing. Do they know the laws and just don't care?

I think I may have used the opportunity to ask him why he engaged me and also asked for ID if he knows the laws.

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Perhaps it just made him feel better to know the guy carrying the gun was legally allowed to, because he has no way of knowing otherwise.

Welcome to the forum!

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EM87 wrote:

Perhaps it just made him feel better to know the guy carrying the gun was legally allowed to, because he has no way of knowing otherwise.

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So? The police have a duty to assume someone is lawful until they can articulate that they are not. Seeing someone with a firearm does not meet that standard.

Come on this isn't brain surgery. Either we are free or we are not.

And under the state and federal constitutions we are all legally allowed to bear arms...RIGHT? Any thing making us illegal in this regardis infringement correct?

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Venator wrote:

Do you think the NAZI regime started out with ovens and gas chambers?

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Thats all true, but we diddnt start out by bombing nazi controlled cities either. When it was appropriate we did, and if it becomes necessary, we will again.

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CrimDoc wrote:

  

UCWT: I'm glad you brought up "getting off my property" because I think that brings up a similar (but not gun related issue).    If you own 80 acres up North do you have a RIGHT to slap up "private property, no trespassing" signs and snarl at everyone who walks their dog on your property?  Sure you do.   Would I do it?  No.   Or forget up North ... my street ends in a cul-de-sac ... at the end of it there's about 20 acres of woods, jointly owned by the 4 or 5 homeowners who surround it ... could THEY have slapped up "private property, no trespassing" signs and kept neighbors like me from walking my dog back there ... sure, it's their right.   Do I appreciate the fact that they're NOT dicks and haven't done so ... yes I do.     

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so they are LEO's?
i don't equate how PP and surrounding home owners have anything to do with me telling A LEO to get to kicking rocks if he has no warrant to be on my property or wants to see my papers for NOTHING!

since you like stories here ya go.

other night my wife was sleeping (12:30am)
dogs going nuts,motion lights on, arms herself and then hears banging on the house. not the door the house.
starts looking to see WTF! when through the half open window mag light shining in.
COULD YOU COME TO THE DOOR PLEASE!

leo could you put up the dogs so i could come in

wife no
(would you have complied?)
(should she disclose she is concealed now)

he asks by name for my 8 yr old kid. wife thinking WTF? does he want?
well turns out the trash down the road said my kid was the last to be in their house and a lap top came up missing.

so now the leo is telling her if the laptop is returned no harm but IF IT IS NOT AND SHE IS TO BE FOUND IN POSSESSION LATER IT WILL BE A FELONY!!!

so at this time my wife gets my 8 yr old that has school in the morning to resolve this.

leo BLAH BLAH in their house,laptop

kid HUH i was never in their house

leo well BLAH BLAH he said,she said and if i come back and find you with it you will be in BIG trouble BLAH BLAH jail.


if i were home i may have went outside to talk but i can hear through the screen.i could have called him on his BS!because i was home with her and seen her come home with no laptop AT 7 pm the last time she was outside. i would not have got my kid up to talk to him and after the felony statement we would have been done.
if all he was going on was hearsay and speculation.
would i be a dick to tell him to kick rocks because i'm not buying into his gestapo tactics?

yeah he is doing his job but i don't have to give up any info he can clearly find BY doing his job right? especially if he want to lie and mislead.


yeah thats super cool they let you walk your dog on their land. i sure do hope your picking up after you and your dog because after all they are letting you have that luxury.

sorry for your loss but it seems of all people givin your history and you having a hand in the law you seem to be easy to comply when you have no need to.

to each their own but when it comes back to bite you well..