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Thread: I agree with our objective, but not the methods in which the objective is achieved

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    The objective: To enlighten the unenlightened about Freedom, the 2nd amendment, and the ultimate importance of self-preservation, self-defense and safety. That it is the individual responsibility of every citizen to uphold high morals and justice.

    The Methods: Protest, open carry events, trying to get onto the news as much as possible, etc.

    I disagree because I believe there is no need for a brandname or a movement. Movements can be scientifically taken down within weeks. Using common sense, do you really think the Powers that Be & those controlling the Powers at Be are going to allow the opencarry/2a "movements" to have any substantial impact? They will do everything in their power to stop it.

    This is why I steadfastly oppose groups such as the NRA. Many people are proud NRA members, but in a sense they use their own money to pay someone else to fight for their rights, instead of fighting for it themselves like it is their responsibility to do so. It takes away from the individual responsibility of being involved in your own freedom, and the freedom of others. By paying a group such as the NRA, you are abdicating your personal responsibility and "making it someone elses problem" regardless of however big a success the NRA is at doing what it does.

    If the CIA has networks all over the world with agents in almost every place in the world, and can track, find, capture anyone in the world within two weeks, imagine what sort of research or capability they have when it comes to political movements and groups.

    If the average mainstream person walked by an OpenCarry event and saw people with holstered weapons, they would immediately call the police in terror. Many may ask and become enlightened, but most likely would simply leave the area.

    Mainstream society has been brainwashed to fear weapons. We all know this. They have been taught, practically from the cradle on up, that weapons (specifically guns) are bad, and no one but the police or military are capable of possessing and using them in a safe responsible manner. This is of course false. It is hard to cut through the years of mental programming within them, and in a lot of cases, a near impossibility. We must acknowledge that some people can simply not be convinced, and will always oppose us.

    Consider this: All it would take is for some guy, either working for "them" or not, to register on this website or others like it, go out and commit some violent act that highly publicized on purpose and then the media can say its all opencarrys fault. It would not matter what you did from then on, because millions of americans watching would have the name "opencarry movement" programmed into their brains as being a bunch of crazy, conspiracy theorizing anti-american nutjobs. Opencarry would most likely spend the next half-decade saying "We do not condone that behaviour, we do not represent that", ultimately defeating the movement almost instantaneously.



    It is also a sheer ludicrous to assume the governments progressive attempts to reduce our ability to own weapons is just coincidences over the last 50-60 years. Whether you believe it not is irrelevant, but it is all part of a broad plan to transform your nation into something incredibly different than what it was founded upon.

    Although they would like you to believe it, those in power behind those who appear in power are not stupid. They know the ultimate last line of defense we have is our ability to overthrow them physically, and they really do s*** their pants over it.

    Now i'm not some crazy guy advocating a civil war, just merely pointing out reality.

    My Solution:

    Individual activism. Instead of joining a group, movement, just stand up for own rights yourself. Join with your friends or family, but don't call yourself anything. Call yourself simply american. Not with a huge banner, or groupname. Just simply american. They can surely stop a huge group consisting thousands of individuals, but then can't stop thousands of individuals acting by their own will. What I am saying is be your own leader!

    Personal thoughts that shouldn't be taken personally: I think All Concealed Weapon Carry & Open carry permit holders are frauds & hear me out on this one and remember i'm on your side. When you agree to any form of licensing or permits, especially from the government, you loose freedoms. This excludes of course people who don't need permits, as their state recognizes the pre-existing freedom. This is because the people who issue you your license to do something (In this case the Gov), also have the power to take it away at any time. So you License/Permit holders walking around thinking "Yeah, Freedom baby" are only deluding yourselves, as that is not a Freedom you are exorcising, it is a privilege. Privileges can be revoked. I advocate open carrying or concealed carrying regardless of what the law says. The 2nd Amendment is your concealed weapon permit as far as i'm concerned.
    Most people can remember if they were convicted of a crime. Most people haven't, so theres a pretty good chance you know you don't have a criminal history, so you can pass your own background check. If enough people open/concealed carry countrywide, nothing can stop it from happening and being accepted.

    If orange hats were illegal, and 100 million people tomorrow wore orange hats, do you think 100 million people would goto jail? Not a chance.

    It is the responsibility of fathers to teach their children about gun-safety as early as possible, to ensure the child (and new generation) grow up comfortable around guns, knowing how to use them, and making sure (through hunting etc) that taking a life is a terrible, yet sometimes ultimately necessary task.

    Which brings me to my next question:
    How low would things have to go before you physically rebelled against authority? I'm talking about Police Officers, Military Soldiers etc.


    p.s.

    :what: Grats! You just read through a massive wall of text.
    Your current feelings after reading are most likely or :shock:

    I'll also leave with a quote I made up myself:

    "There's a difference between defending yourself & defending your life."

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    I have to admit. I did not read the wall of words. Your thoughts turned me off early, so after a few paragraphs, I just scanned for key ideas.

    Branding is part and parcel of changing hearts and minds. opencarry.org is easily remembered, and each time it is mentioned on the news, it gets new hits. It's not so much that people don't want OC; they don't know that OC is legal most places. As more and more people find out it is OK, they will OC more and more. As more and more people see routine OC, even more will OC.

    Ya got some tin-foil-hat stuff there, buddy. Part of the reason I stopped reading and started scanning.

    Final point: You are preying on emotion, much like the antis do. The reaction to OC events that you predict would result in an avalanche of 911 calls. That doesn't happen. Most OC events are well-publicized in advance (part of "branding") and are extremely peaceful and law-abiding. Folks just take it in stride. When we had our OC blood drive, a few weeks back, some folks didn't notice, others didn't care, many stopped and talked to us. No one called 911. Not one officer came by.

    opencarry.org, lawful and routine OC, publicized events, ration (as opposed to emotion), and every other technique advocated by John and Mike work.

    Folks, just keep doing what you're doing. Keep making OC more routine, civil, rational, and safe.

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    "If the average mainstream person walked by an OpenCarry event and saw people with holstered weapons, they would immediately call the police in terror."

    You lost me right there.

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    "If the average mainstream person walked by an OpenCarry event and saw people with holstered weapons, they would immediately call the police in terror."
    Projection. Subconsciously, you know that is what you would do (or would like to do).
    Actual real-life experience shows that this seldom happens.

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    I guess you were right about thepart, well more like .

    1. For most anyways, I don't think there is a "brandname" we all just happen to carry, and on occasion, together.

    2. What's wrong with the NRA? Can you honeslty say that you think they have done nothing in thier lifetime to defend gun rights?

    3. The CIA thing. Becuase the government is large and overbearing, I should just roll-over and give up?

    4. People would call the cops franticly. This never actually happenens.

    5. I don't have an Open carry permit.
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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    Regular Member Old Grump's Avatar
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    This is why I steadfastly oppose groups such as the NRA. Many people are proud NRA members, but in a sense they use their own money to pay someone else to fight for their rights, instead of fighting for it themselves like it is their responsibility to do so. It takes away from the individual responsibility of being involved in your own freedom, and the freedom of others. By paying a group such as the NRA, you are abdicating your personal responsibility and "making it someone elses problem" regardless of however big a success the NRA is at doing what it does.

    And supporting the experts with our name, numbers and money is bad how? Several million members is a movement, a single person is a nut getting hassled for scaring little ninnies or having an (arsenal?) of 5 rifles, a handgun and a thousand rounds of assorted calibers of ammunition.

    The two working together, the super organization and hundreds maybe thousands of individuals is hard to ignore, takes both and I'm not giving up my membership in any of the pro-gun organizations or giving up my individual efforts. To suggest I do so is simple minded and wrong no matter how much you personally despise the NRA
    Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAF and CCRKBA

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    Wolffe,

    While I do not agree with all of your sentiments, your post tells me that you have your head in the game. Welcome to OCDO, you're in the right place. Stick around.

    cccook.

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    "If the average mainstream person walked by an OpenCarry event and saw people with holstered weapons, they would immediately call the police in terror."

    You lost me right there.
    We have had many open carry events and even the anti's didn't run away most engaged in thoughtful conversation. This is in liberal Western Washington.

    These suppositions are just ridiculous, I dare anyone who says this kind of junk who pretends to be pro 2A to come to a meet or opencarry for yourself before making these assumptions.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    One day I was with a PA guy and in a town in PA that is VERY close to the Mason Dixon line. We OC'd on the rail trail for a bit. It was a nice saturday so there were alot of folks on the trail. I am sure a good deal of them were from MD, or were transplants from MD now living in PA. MD is one of those states run by a central hub of non american types, and is therefore law wise, an anti gun state. This central hub is elected in over and over by clueless voters living in the districts of the central hub. The MD county bordering the PA county in question is one where about half the county is clueless liberal types. The Mason Dixon line is about 40 miles north of Baltimore, a known bastion of anti gunners.

    So there we were walking around, guns visible on hips, and... NOBODY CARED!

    The only thing I heard about was that some months later the cheif of the local PD stated at a PD meeting that there was "a group"of open carriers in town trying to make trouble for the PD or something or another. LOL

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    wolffe wrote:
    The objective: To enlighten the unenlightened about Freedom, the 2nd amendment, and the ultimate importance of self-preservation, self-defense and safety. That it is the individual responsibility of every citizen to uphold high morals and justice.
    :what: Grats! You just read through a massive wall of text.
    Your current feelings after reading are most likely or :shock:

    I'll also leave with a quote I made up myself:

    "There's a difference between defending yourself & defending your life."
    No I didn't.

    You began with a decent statement of objective. The logic broke down almost immediately after that.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Alright. I have read only your OP, and none of the comments to it, yet. I read it twice actually, and my response was neither :shock: nor. I have to start by saying that I agree with some of your conclusions, but none of your reasoning. You are correct in your assertions that the only ones we can rely on are ourselves and that we shouldn't hand over all responsibility for defending our rights to any person or group.

    Your reasoning, however, is flawed and full of emotional arguments and improbable leaps of logic. Yes, the CIA, NSA, FBI, BATFE, and any other acronym you want to substitute, probably has the capability to track group leaders, group members, supporters, detractors, or anyone. Yes, any criminal or negligent act by any gun owner who carries in any manner casts a shadow on all of us. Yes, membership in politically motivated organizations leads some to sit on their laurels and expect others to take up the banner for all. Yes, the average person is taught to fear weapons, and many are taught to fear and obey the police mainly because they have weapons.

    None of this means that we ought to disavow group membership or friendship with others who share our beliefs. To paraphrase Kenneth Blanchard, "None of us is as powerful as all of us."
    None of this means that we ought to walk around breaking the law just to prove a point. I agree that we are under no obligation to follow an unjust law, however I believe MLK said it best when he said "An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law." If you are not willing to face the punishment for breaking even an unjust law, maybe you should follow Abraham Lincoln's advice, "But I do mean to say that although bad laws, if they exist, should be repealed as soon as possible, still, while they continue in force, for the sake of example they should be religiously observed."
    None of this means that the government is evil and is disarming us on purpose to keep us subjugated. To paraphrase Hanlon, "Never attribute to malice, that which can be explained by ignorance." Has this happened before in history? Yes! Do I think we are to that point? Decidedly not. Not while free people have the intelligence and the desire to argue against the unjust.

    How low would things have to go before you physically rebelled against authority? I'm talking about Police Officers, Military Soldiers etc.
    This type of question is liable to lead to two answers to every person asked. 1) The truth as they feel it, and 2) What they are willing to say out loud. All I will say out loud is that this is a very good question.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    Regular Member Bobarino's Avatar
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    If the CIA has networks all over the world with agents in almost every place in the world, and can track, find, capture anyone in the world within two weeks
    all the CIA and 130,000 troops still haven't found Osama Bin Laden and we've been looking for 8 years or so. if someone doesn't want to be found, they can make it so.

    not that this has anything to do with the open carry movement....

    Bobby

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Bobarino wrote:
    If the CIA has networks all over the world with agents in almost every place in the world, and can track, find, capture anyone in the world within two weeks
    all the CIA and 130,000 troops still haven't found Osama Bin Laden and we've been looking for 8 years or so. if someone doesn't want to be found, they can make it so.

    not that this has anything to do with the open carry movement....

    Bobby
    If they have lots of money and a huge network of fanatics that support him.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    wolffe wrote:
    Consider this: All it would take is for some guy, either working for "them" or not, to register on this website or others like it, go out and commit some violent act that highly publicized on purpose and then the media can say its all opencarrys fault. It would not matter what you did from then on, because millions of americans watching would have the name "opencarry movement" programmed into their brains as being a bunch of crazy, conspiracy theorizing anti-american nutjobs. Opencarry would most likely spend the next half-decade saying "We do not condone that behaviour, we do not represent that", ultimately defeating the movement almost instantaneously.
    After quickly scanning your long winded essay, this paragraph seems like old news. Thishappens every day. In the immediate aftermath of a tragic crime, the lame-stream media jumps up and down wailing that it is the fault ofALL gun owners and that "stronger gun control laws are required."The anti-self-defensewing-nutsissue their pre-writtenpress release full of lies.The "evil" gun lobby issues their press release correcting the lies from the antis.The newspapersand blog sites are host to a back andfourth argument about the second amendment, how scary guns are, how dangerous thoseparanoid gun owners are, bla, bla, bla. After a week or two, the masses are back to the sheep farm to wait for the nextitem to BAAAA at.

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    Everyone should have ignored his rants and read his solutions.

    I agree INDIVIDUAL ACTIVISM is paramount. Just be a good example to your friends, family, and neighbors. I think OCDO is loose enough, INTENTIONALLY SO, to fit into that lifestyle well.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    wolffe wrote:
    This is why I steadfastly oppose groups such as the NRA.
    If the average mainstream person walked by an OpenCarry event and saw people with holstered weapons, they would immediately call the police in terror. Many may ask and become enlightened, but most likely would simply leave the area.


    It is also a sheer ludicrous to assume the governments progressive attempts to reduce our ability to own weapons is just coincidences over the last 50-60 years. Whether you believe it not is irrelevant, but it is all part of a broad plan to transform your nation into something incredibly different than what it was founded upon.
    The NRA's record on Open Carry is Public Knowledge.

    I have been to SEVERAL OC events and no one "called the police in terror."They asked questions, we gave answers. They smiled, shook hands and continued to chit-chat.

    "...your nation..." So, I may assume that you are NOT an American Citizen? If not...STFUGTFO.
    "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." B. Franklin

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    mcdonalk wrote:

    How low would things have to go before you physically rebelled against authority? I'm talking about Police Officers, Military Soldiers etc.
    This type of question is liable to lead to two answers to every person asked. 1) The truth as they feel it, and 2) What they are willing to say out loud. All I will say out loud is that this is a very good question.
    +1
    I'll stick with answer 2, for now!

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    The only way that we will reverse the brainwashing of the American public perpetrated by the left wing media is to confront it with the daily reality of law abiding gun owners with their weapons in plain view just going about their business as usual. Concealing your weapon keeps the issue out of the forefront of their minds and does not challenge the status quo.

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