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Thread: Citizen Times - SAF's Alan Gottlieb & Gun Week's Dave Workman slam Democrats for DC vote

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    Democratic hypocrisy reigns

    Alan Gottlieb and Dave Workman • May 1, 2010

    http://www.citizen-times.com/article...100423035/1006

    SNIP

    Once again, Congressional Democrats have thrown to the wolves an opportunity to adopt one of their most sought-after achievements – voting rights for the District of Columbia – because, in their own words, the “price was too high.”

    And what was that price? An amendment that would have nullified the District’s Draconian gun regulations and brought the nation’s capitol city in line with the nation it governs. Democrats have again shown their true colors toward the right of all citizens to keep and bear arms . . .

    Capitol Hill Democrats ignore the fact that concealed and open carry is legal in most states. Even in Wisconsin, where there is no concealed carry provision, the open carry of a firearm is legal. In Arizona the other day, Gov. Jan Brewersigned legislation that does away with a requirement to obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun, but of course, she is a Republican. More than 6 million Americans in 48 states are licensed to carry concealed, and growing numbers of activists are adopting non-aggressive open carry as their means of peaceably packing firearms for personal protection.

    . . .


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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Has anyone ever witnessed Alan OC'ing?
    Why are you asking this?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Ok, I'll bite. Why do you need an answer? What will you use the information for?

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    A conspiracy theory, this is a gun forum.lol

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    Mike wrote:
    Democratic hypocrisy reigns

    Alan Gottlieb and Dave Workman • May 1, 2010

    http://www.citizen-times.com/article...100423035/1006

    SNIP

    Once again, Congressional Democrats have thrown to the wolves an opportunity to adopt one of their most sought-after achievements – voting rights for the District of Columbia – because, in their own words, the “price was too high.”

    And what was that price? An amendment that would have nullified the District’s Draconian gun regulations and brought the nation’s capitol city in line with the nation it governs. Democrats have again shown their true colors toward the right of all citizens to keep and bear arms . . .

    Capitol Hill Democrats ignore the fact that concealed and open carry is legal in most states. Even in Wisconsin, where there is no concealed carry provision, the open carry of a firearm is legal. In Arizona the other day, Gov. Jan Brewersigned legislation that does away with a requirement to obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun, but of course, she is a Republican. More than 6 million Americans in 48 states are licensed to carry concealed, and growing numbers of activists are adopting non-aggressive open carry as their means of peaceably packing firearms for personal protection.

    . . .
    A bunch of partisan poop, if you ask me.

    The District's position is about home rule, and local control, as much as it is about guns.

    Is it that some gun rights advocates abandon principles of federalism when it comes toDC?

    Or is it that some gun rights advocateshate democrats more than they appreciatebedrock conservative principles?

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    To ascertain an answer.
    Oh, ok. So far, I would say the answer is no. It is great to seepeople like Alanwho don't OC speak out in support forOC as he did,much like when peoplewho don't own guns speak out forgun rights. It's a sign that the right in question has a strong foundation on fundamental principles.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    He's not "speaking out in support of OC," only using the facts to beat up on some democrats in DC.
    Not that I don't like the fact he did this, but SAF are not necessarly pro OC. I think they are slowly getting better "maybe". LOL.


    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I am saddened that DC cannot get the local government to unfetter their gun ownership Right, but I also detest the idea that it was tied to the question of the DC Rep being able to vote.

    IIRC, DC was created toensure that any one state would not have undue influence on the Federal Government, among other reasons. Well, that street runs both ways. Giving a DC Rep a vote seems to me to be tantamont to opening the District up to the same institutionalized corruption that is so evident in other States ... but relatively, this is the most influential Representative in the nation. Talk about the possibility of a Congressional Seat being 'for sale' <sarcasm>.


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    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    He's not "speaking out in support of OC," only using the facts to beat up on some democrats in DC.
    He's doing both. In beating up the anti-rights Dems,Alan's pieceincorporates the distinction between open and concealed carryand his message is supportive of both.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I've had personal conversations with (not Allan) but another guy from SAF, unless they are hunting or hiking it's my belief you won't see them OC.

    Nevertheless, he defended the right in this article which is a good thing.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    He's not "speaking out in support of OC," only using the facts to beat up on some democrats in DC.
    Not that I don't like the fact he did this, but SAF are not necessarly pro OC. I think they are slowly getting better "maybe". LOL.
    Agreed. Everyone is entitled to recognizing the error of their ways, improving themselves, and earning more respect and acceptanceas a result. It should be no different for Alan and his SAF, ifsuch may be the case.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    From experience, I find the best way to support something is by DOING it.
    Again, has anyone EVER seen Alan OC'ing?
    That is the best way for most of us, but there are at least two considerations to keep in mind:

    • Be thankful for anyfriend of OC, even though they may not do it. Their voices and votes are still effective.
    • Particularly as a person's audience or influence is greater, the effectiveness of their rhetorical action is a weapon as useful, if not more so, than anything else.

    If Alan does not OC, I don't know why not, but I don't care, as long as he is vocally supportive of OC. In his particular capacity, his mere vocal support and arguments for OC can be an effective weapon for the OC movement.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    I'll trade ya' a hundred slick talkers for one good doer anyday..............
    I do understand your point. Doing is preferable to talking, which is why I have extendedmy 2A advocacy to OC'ing. I wish allgun ownerswould OC. That being said, I recognize that not everyone who supports OC in principleis going to do it. That's just the reality, but if they are adding at least their voices and votes to mine, they are my friend and ally.

    I won't trade anyone for anyone else. I'll take the hundred slick talkers AND the one good doer in my camp, and together we will attempt to get things done.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    From experience, I find the best way to support something is by DOING it.
    Sorry, I don't agree with this logic.

    I support our troops - but I'm not in the military.

    I support breast cancer research - but I'm not a medical research scientist.

    ...

    So, you don't think somebody could support gay rights without being gay?
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    "You people" never cease to amaze me.

    Instead of ole Alan standing on his soapbox, thumping his chest and claiming to support something he's apparently never done, he should walk the walk, which means he should get out from behind that desk, bring his bow-tied arse down and lead an OC march somewhere.

    Got it?
    Mark,
    I've always respected you on the Louisiana forum, but seriously, look for allies, not enemies. The glass isn't always full, nor is it always empty.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    "You people" never cease to amaze me.

    Instead of ole Alan standing on his soapbox, thumping his chest and claiming to support something he's apparently never done, he should walk the walk, which means he should get out from behind that desk, bring his bow-tied arse down and lead an OC march somewhere.

    Got it?
    I support rights of blacks, women, gays, various religious groups, etc. I am not these or involved in any of these activities damn I guess I should stop supporting them.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    "You people" never cease to amaze me.

    Instead of ole Alan standing on his soapbox, thumping his chest and claiming to support something he's apparently never done, he should walk the walk, which means he should get out from behind that desk, bring his bow-tied arse down and lead an OC march somewhere.

    Got it?
    Ya know, Liberty not only includes the right to OC, it includes the right not to.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    "You people" never cease to amaze me.
    What do you mean by "You People"?:P
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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