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Thread: Personal home defense, shotguns, or handguns. Or a Judge.

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    Sevenplusone suggested a thread, in response to one of my posts. I agree.He likes the 12 ga, for home defense, I like a handgun. I sold my 12 last week, partly because I dont really need it for home defense since I have the .40. The .40 is on my leg or hip, the 12 was on a cable lock in the other room. What good is a 12 locked in the other room when Im carrying a handgun? I dont want to lock / unlock the 12 when I leave and return home.

    This was my post from the other thread. : a handgun is far superior to a shotgun for defense in the home. The hallway for instance in my home is 29" wide, its not as practical to turn quickly with the mossy in ther hall. I may have to retreat, fight, go prone, or any other defensive maneuver in that hall. The barrel also makes a pretty good handle for the BG esp. when entering a room, or clearing the side rooms. Also semi auto shotguns are rare, and I dont want 300 tiny bbs flying through the house. Much easier to contrpl a JHP than shot. 12 ga, slugs? in a neighborhood?


    But then there is the taurus judge...

    fire away.


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    This might (see also: will) need another thread, but I could not disagree more. Seriously. Handguns are pathetic stoppers. Pathetic. Don't use penetration as an excuse to use a handgun round. A typical handgun round will still enter and exit several walls. Sure, a shotgun slug will do the same, so don't use slugs. There are plenty of other options that will penetrate less and deliver far more energy (see: #4 which the absolute minimum my HD shotty will ever be stoked with).

    If you clear a room properly a shorter shotty will work fine. You need the stopping power. End of Story.

    Think about this a second, the person who has broken into your home already has had adrenaline flowing through their veins for perhaps as long as several minutes. They are already on edge, waiting to react. You just startled awake, you go fumbling for your sidearm, you grab it and start 'clearing' your home. Your odds of actually hitting the BG with a lethal round are not good. A shotgun is going to seriously improve your odds of hitting anything (and no, not because of the pattern). The longer radius of the gun, both site and total are helpful. Not to mention the amount of force carried with a shotgun round of any type when compared to a handgun round of any type.

    You need to know that one round will do the job. One. You have to assume you will not have a chance to get off a second one. Nothing does that better than a 12ga.

    Pick a pump or semi-auto (but make sure it works with your loads of choice as they will be pickier to some extent).

    One more note, a well-made, properly functioning 12gauge is one of the single most cost-effective guns you can buy. You should be able to have a perfectly working, appropriate sized shotgun for well under $300 (I built mine for $240). Compare that to, say, a Glock. Figure $450-$500 for a Glock right (and most Glock owners I know own a couple)? So for the price of a comparable Glock you bought yourself an awesome home defense weapon and 800 rounds of birdshot to practice with...and practice is infinitely more important than the how awesome and techy the weapon is.


    A good sidearm and a good HD weapon are both necessary to most collections, but it would almost be impossible to have one that does both things without heavy compromise...and life or death situations are not the time to make compromises.


    - - Also, don't even get me started on what a useless piece of crap the Judge is. It's a horrible compromise that accomplishes nothing.

    Most 000 buckshot in a Judge will only do 700ish fps last time I checked. That's not going to be a great penetrator with such light pellets (66gr or so?).

    It is a very specialized pistol, especially considering the selling point is that it's 'so versatile'. For me .45colt is versatile. Load the heck out of it and make rounds that get in .44mag territory, or load it down with some lead powderpuff practice loads. This is just as an example of what could be made in a much smaller and more useful package. Heck, just get a really nice .44mag and shoot .44specials in it for practice. Screw that, just by a 9mm and be done with the whole blasted idea...and that's coming from a .45acp apologist.


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    A pistol is really a poor defense weapon, its something to use until you can get a shotgun or a rifle


    try this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovL9I2iQmM


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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Really it comes down to training... running a shotgun in close quarters requires training and more training.

    A handgun does too but BC of it's size it is more forgiving...


    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Any projectile... or group of projectiles.. that have the energy necessary to inflict enough damage to physically stop an attacking human being will also have the energy to penetrate several barriers.

    Doesn't matter what caliber, what gun, or what projectile is used... not enough energy to penetrate barriers also means not enough energy to penetrate an attacking human being.

    Shotguns, like any other gun, has advantages and disadvantages... it is not the end all be all home defense gun. Neither are pistols... nor is any other firearm platform. Choose what works best for you inside the house you have.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Police: Homeowner not being charged in fatal shooting at this time

    http://www.wmbfnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=12391185

    Lots of comments on various sites about whether this homeowner should have kept his mouth shut or not but it seems that he isn't going to be charged. It happened this past week and he shot one of the intruders three times in the mid-section with a .357. With three .357 rounds in him he still was able to run outside and a good ways before finally falling down and dying.

    So you be the "judge" of what you would like to have. There was only one majic bullet and Oswald used it too shoot Kennedy. The rest of us will have to rely on skill and luck for out protection.

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    What about the specialty loads for pistols? Does any one have any experience with or comments about the MagSafe pistol ammo?

    http://magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    fozzy71 wrote:
    What about the specialty loads for pistols? Does any one have any experience with or comments about the MagSafe pistol ammo?
    Almost every single one of these type of rounds is a gimmick. You need only read the following from their website to realize they lied once, they're probably lying about more of it.

    THE BOTTOM LINE MagSafe Ammo is faster, recoils less, and stops attackers faster than any other ammunition in the world. Elite forces are outfitted with MagSafe, from Navy SEALS to the Royal Hong Kong Police anti-gang units, from big-city undercover narcs to guards at some of America's meanest prisons. The reason is simple. MagSafe works. It's expensive, but it works. You really can turn your .380 into .45 auto, but you have to pay for this kind of hand-crafted performance.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Police: Homeowner not being charged in fatal shooting at this time

    http://www.wmbfnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=12391185

    Lots of comments on various sites about whether this homeowner should have kept his mouth shut or not but it seems that he isn't going to be charged. It happened this past week and he shot one of the intruders three times in the mid-section with a .357. With three .357 rounds in him he still was able to run outside and a good ways before finally falling down and dying.

    So you be the "judge" of what you would like to have. There was only one majic bullet and Oswald used it too shoot Kennedy. The rest of us will have to rely on skill and luck for out protection.
    A 12ga slug and/or buckshot is pretty close to magic. You're talking about 1oz of shot or a slug (roughly 300gr) moving at 1500-1700 fps. If you use a slug it's over 70 caliber also. The math is very impressive. Then think about the blunt trama of 00 buckshot. 9 pellets that are .33caliber and roughly 60 grains going 1400fps (or more).

    Compare that to the .357, probably going 1000fps or so with a 158gr (if it's heavy) projectile.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Personaly I will stick with the best of both worlds, my Remington 870 "pistol", 00!

    God Bless
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    God Bless

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    sevenplusone wrote:

    A 12ga slug and/or buckshot is pretty close to magic. You're talking about 1oz of shot or a slug (roughly 300gr) moving at 1500-1700 fps. If you use a slug it's over 70 caliber also. The math is very impressive. Then think about the blunt trama of 00 buckshot. 9 pellets that are .33caliber and roughly 60 grains going 1400fps (or more).

    Compare that to the .357, probably going 1000fps or so with a 158gr (if it's heavy) projectile.
    Please provide links to studies that compare the lethality of shotgun loads vs calibers of handguns from actual incidents. I would be very interested in discovering the fabled "one shot stop" or "the most effective" round/loading/caliber there is.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Id like to see that too.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    sevenplusone wrote:

    A 12ga slug and/or buckshot is pretty close to magic. You're talking about 1oz of shot or a slug (roughly 300gr) moving at 1500-1700 fps. If you use a slug it's over 70 caliber also. The math is very impressive. Then think about the blunt trama of 00 buckshot. 9 pellets that are .33caliber and roughly 60 grains going 1400fps (or more).

    Compare that to the .357, probably going 1000fps or so with a 158gr (if it's heavy) projectile.
    Please provide links to studies that compare the lethality of shotgun loads vs calibers of handguns from actual incidents. I would be very interested in discovering the fabled "one shot stop" or "the most effective" round/loading/caliber there is.

    Admittedly I'm not sure any such study exists. That said, handgun rounds have proved time and time again to be inferior in many ways when compared to longgun calibers/rounds/weapons etc. when it comes to general stopping power. It's a simple physics equation, why handicap yourself with a handgun when a longgun will deliver far more energy regardless of how you measure it. Handgun rounds do not go fast enough to cause an inflated permanent wound cavity as they do not produce hydrostatic shock the way a long gun round will.

    Honestly, the besttool {edit}for home defense would probably be a high powered rifle, but that isn't practical for most people in their living situation.


    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Im...ifleWPcopy.jpg


    http://intrencik.com/357sig_files/Ha...comparison.jpg


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    sevenplusone wrote:
    ......
    Honestly, the best weapon would probably be a high powered rifle, but that isn't practical.

    An FN Five/Seven is starting to sound like a good purchase to me.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    sevenplusone wrote

    ((((((((((((Honestly, the best weapon would probably be a high powered rifle, but that isn't practical.))))))))))))






    I dont carry a weapon I carry a tool!!!!

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    sevenplusone wrote:


    Admittedly I'm not sure any such study exists. That said, handgun rounds have proved time and time again to be inferior in many ways when compared to longgun calibers/rounds/weapons etc. when it comes to general stopping power. It's a simple physics equation, why handicap yourself with a handgun when a longgun will deliver far more energy regardless of how you measure it. Handgun rounds do not go fast enough to cause an inflated permanent wound cavity as they do not produce hydrostatic shock the way a long gun round will.

    Honestly, the besttool {edit}for home defense would probably be a high powered rifle, but that isn't practical for most people in their living situation.


    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Im...ifleWPcopy.jpg


    http://intrencik.com/357sig_files/Ha...comparison.jpg
    Well... I'm glad you asked.

    Pistols are superior to any long gun in a home defense situation... in a home with tight quarters and blind doorways because... a long gun in that situation is too bulky to maneuver around tight corners, slow to bring on target because of being too bulky to get around corners, susceptible to having the barrel grabbed by bad guys on the other side of those blind doorways, and are not helpful when the bad guy is in your face. In cases like this it is the long gun that is the handicap.

    There is a whole lot more to consider when choosing a firearm for home defense than just which gun gives the biggest "bang".

    In some homes the long gun will work best... in some homes the pistol will work best. For some folks who have training up the wazoo any dang gun will work the best... but then, how many average folks have training up the wazoo?

    Suggesting to others that a shotgun or rifle is the best tool to use for home defense because those long guns are more powerful than a pistol without investigating their own personal conditions in that home is doing them a great disservice.

    Not raggin' on ya Sevenplusone... just wanting to give the other side of the coin so folks who read the stuff we post (and right now dang near the whole world is watching OCDO) will have more info in order to be able to make the decision that will serve them as individuals, in individual situations, the best.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    sevenplusone wrote:


    Admittedly I'm not sure any such study exists. That said, handgun rounds have proved time and time again to be inferior in many ways when compared to longgun calibers/rounds/weapons etc. when it comes to general stopping power. It's a simple physics equation, why handicap yourself with a handgun when a longgun will deliver far more energy regardless of how you measure it. Handgun rounds do not go fast enough to cause an inflated permanent wound cavity as they do not produce hydrostatic shock the way a long gun round will.

    Honestly, the besttool {edit}for home defense would probably be a high powered rifle, but that isn't practical for most people in their living situation.


    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Im...ifleWPcopy.jpg


    http://intrencik.com/357sig_files/Ha...comparison.jpg
    Well... I'm glad you asked.

    Pistols are superior to any long gun in a home defense situation... in a home with tight quarters and blind doorways because... a long gun in that situation is too bulky to maneuver around tight corners, slow to bring on target because of being too bulky to get around corners, susceptible to having the barrel grabbed by bad guys on the other side of those blind doorways, and are not helpful when the bad guy is in your face. In cases like this it is the long gun that is the handicap.

    If handguns are superior for clearing homes than why does every SWAT/Tactical/etc team enter a home with carbines and shotguns?

    It's because it's a lot easier to hit stuff with a long gun and the power is needed when you expect trouble.

    Training is the most important thing, one shouldknow how to properly clear a room with whatever weapon they have, but a shotgun really is the bestand most cost-effective choice.




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    How about a 45 in one hand and a semi auto shotgun in the other?

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    flinch wrote:
    How about a 45 in one hand and a semi auto shotgun in the other?
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    sevenplusone wrote:

    If handguns are superior for clearing homes than why does every SWAT/Tactical/etc team enter a home with carbines and shotguns?

    It's because it's a lot easier to hit stuff with a long gun and the power is needed when you expect trouble.

    Training is the most important thing, one shouldknow how to properly clear a room with whatever weapon they have, but a shotgun really is the bestand most cost-effective choice.


    You left out this part of my post that you quoted:
    Bikenut wrote:

    In some homes the long gun will work best... in some homes the pistol will work best. For some folks who have training up the wazoo any dang gun will work the best... but then, how many average folks have training up the wazoo?
    So... how many average folks have the level of training of a SWAT member?

    Perhaps you do... and although I do have some training it doesn't equal the training a SWAT member gets.... and I suspect the vast majority of average folks out there don't either.

    Not to mention SWAT operates as a multimember team covering each other as they work their way around corners... does the average citizen have a team to help them clear their house?

    Once again... I'm not ragging on you... just pointing out that long guns are not the end all be all defensive choice for everyone in every home just because they have a bigger "bang" than a pistol.

    I'll give an example... a personal example.

    In my home I have a fatal tunnel and a deadly crossroads.. both at the same place, the exit from my bedroom. If I use a long gun I cannot pie all 4 corners without exposing myself from at least 2 directions because I can't get the barrel past the corner far enough to shoot at something without showing myself too much. And not without sticking the barrel of a long gun out where it can be grabbed. Not to mention it is a pain to move around without banging the barrel of a long gun against a wall or two.

    With a pistol I can stay further back and still pie all those corners much more safely.

    Now... perhaps some folks don't have that problem in their house but for those of us who do a long gun becomes a detriment that works against us... not for us. And I'd much rather have a lower powered pistol that I can actually use effectively than a highly powered long gun that I can't get around the corner to use.

    But then... each of us needs to evaluate their own homes.. and the hazards built into those homes.. and figure out how to best address those hazards.. and what tool will work the best for addressing those hazards regardless of how big a "bang" it has.

    Having the biggest gun in the world won't help if it can't be brought to bear on the threat and actually be used to defend.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    sevenplusone wrote:

    If handguns are superior for clearing homes than why does every SWAT/Tactical/etc team enter a home with carbines and shotguns?

    It's because it's a lot easier to hit stuff with a long gun and the power is needed when you expect trouble.

    Training is the most important thing, one shouldknow how to properly clear a room with whatever weapon they have, but a shotgun really is the bestand most cost-effective choice.


    You left out this part of my post that you quoted:
    Bikenut wrote:

    In some homes the long gun will work best... in some homes the pistol will work best. For some folks who have training up the wazoo any dang gun will work the best... but then, how many average folks have training up the wazoo?
    So... how many average folks have the level of training of a SWAT member?

    Perhaps you do... and although I do have some training it doesn't equal the training a SWAT member gets.... and I suspect the vast majority of average folks out there don't either.

    Not to mention SWAT operates as a multimember team covering each other as they work their way around corners... does the average citizen have a team to help them clear their house?

    Once again... I'm not ragging on you... just pointing out that long guns are not the end all be all defensive choice for everyone in every home just because they have a bigger "bang" than a pistol.

    I'll give an example... a personal example.

    In my home I have a fatal tunnel and a deadly crossroads.. both at the same place, the exit from my bedroom. If I use a long gun I cannot pie all 4 corners without exposing myself from at least 2 directions because I can't get the barrel past the corner far enough to shoot at something without showing myself too much. And not without sticking the barrel of a long gun out where it can be grabbed. Not to mention it is a pain to move around without banging the barrel of a long gun against a wall or two.

    With a pistol I can stay further back and still pie all those corners much more safely.

    Now... perhaps some folks don't have that problem in their house but for those of us who do a long gun becomes a detriment that works against us... not for us. And I'd much rather have a lower powered pistol that I can actually use effectively than a highly powered long gun that I can't get around the corner to use.

    But then... each of us needs to evaluate their own homes.. and the hazards built into those homes.. and figure out how to best address those hazards.. and what tool will work the best for addressing those hazards regardless of how big a "bang" it has.

    Having the biggest gun in the world won't help if it can't be brought to bear on the threat and actually be used to defend.
    I guess we'll not find common ground to work with here. I have a well-built tactical length shotgun that will always be my go-to HD weapon and you will stick with your sidearm. I personally have no issues properly pieing/clearing/etc. my home with my shotgun and this is something I practice in the dark on a regular basis. I also do shoot my shotty a lot. It's one of my favorite range pieces. Unloading 7+1 shotgun shells is always a good time.

    I think if somebody doesn't practice with their long gun theywon't practice much with their sidearm either and it's a wholelot easier to be accurate and quick with long gun than a handgun. If you want to bring training into this, it takes a lot more training to be successful with a handgun in a HD scenario.

    I for one do live-fire range drills with my HD shotty at least once a month (usually about 25-50 rds) and fire 700-1500rds a month of handgun drills (about 90% .22lr). I still find myself to be more accurate at any given range with a long gun than a handgun (maybe I just suck). It's just the nature of the beast.

    ** I'd like to think we're both doing a decent job presenting our side of the argument. I'm interested in seeing what others say. It's a pleasure debating with you and you are a more than worthy opponent. I don't take any of this personally, nor do I think you are ragging on me. This is very serious stuff and honestly, you can never have too much information. That said, eventually you have to pick your system and then practice the heck out of it.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    sevenplusone wrote:
    It's a pleasure debating with you and you are a more than worthy opponent. I don't take any of this personally, nor do I think you are ragging on me. This is very serious stuff and honestly, you can never have too much information. That said, eventually you have to pick your system and then practice the heck out of it.
    It has been a pleasure discussing this with you as well.. but I am definitely not your opponent.

    And you are correct .. this is serious stuff and I try to cover as many bases as possible so folks have as much info as possible before they make their choices.

    And that is really all I hope to accomplish with my postings.

    Carry on!!!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Just throwing in my 2 cents here. It boils down to what you think you use best in a high stress and all around defensive situation. The most common crime where someone will have to use deadly force is home invasion. That said there are many things to consider, especially since these attacks often take place in the dead of night, usually while the intended victims are in a deep slumber.

    1: Response time: you will have (at best) approx. 6 seconds to: arm yourself, take a defensive position, gain your composure and be ready to use your weapon(s).

    2: Lighting conditions: In this scenario they play a huge roll. Your eyes may have to adjust to a burst of light as the attacker(s) breech your position. If you do have to fire there is muzzle flash & temporary flash blindness to contend with in low light conditions.

    3. Noise: in a close quarter environment, even a smaller caliber pistol discharge can cause your ears to ring. It's very possible you'll have your sight & hearing at a disadvantage.

    In short most people prepare for using deadly force in the best possible conditions imagined in their minds. Criminals often don't abide by these.

    Choose what makes sense to you, then practice, practice and practice more.
    Ask another person to set an alarm for a late night "abrupt wake up call" without telling you when that time will be. See how long it takes you to be ready then work on lowering that time.

    I hope none of you ever find yourselves in a low light QCB scenario, but if it happens you can be somewhat prepared.

    My personal choice is a pistol gripped, heavily modified 12GA, with a light attached and loaded with "000" buck shot. It is at the ready on a specialty mount that slides under my bed mattress, which allows me to grab it on the fly from my bed.

    I want the first shot to do the most damage possible, allowing time to recoup should a second shot be needed. Again, this just my choice, as even one well placed shot from a 22lr at close range can be lethal.




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    My short XD is ideal for the relatively tight quarters in clearing my single wide. But the biggest advantage the XD has over the 12, is accesability. The XD is always on me, the 12 is always in the corner. My house also is never ever dark. The bedroom is, but thats to my advantage.

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    My short XD is ideal for the relatively tight quarters in clearing my single wide. But the biggest advantage the XD has over the 12, is accesability. The XD is always on me, the 12 is always in the corner. My house also is never ever dark. The bedroom is, but thats to my advantage.
    My 12 is within reach from bed, the same can not be said for my 1911. It's cocked and locked in the dresser drawer.


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