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Personal home defense, shotguns, or handguns. Or a Judge.

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sevenplusone

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Apr 11, 2009
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397
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Kent Co, Michigan, USA
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Bikenut wrote:
sevenplusone wrote:
If handguns are superior for clearing homes than why does every SWAT/Tactical/etc team enter a home with carbines and shotguns?

It's because it's a lot easier to hit stuff with a long gun and the power is needed when you expect trouble.

Training is the most important thing, one shouldknow how to properly clear a room with whatever weapon they have, but a shotgun really is the bestand most cost-effective choice.
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You left out this part of my post that you quoted:
Bikenut wrote:
In some homes the long gun will work best... in some homes the pistol will work best. For some folks who have training up the wazoo any dang gun will work the best... but then, how many average folks have training up the wazoo?
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So... how many average folks have the level of training of a SWAT member?

Perhaps you do... and although I do have some training it doesn't equal the training a SWAT member gets.... and I suspect the vast majority of average folks out there don't either.

Not to mention SWAT operates as a multimember team covering each other as they work their way around corners... does the average citizen have a team to help them clear their house?

Once again... I'm not ragging on you... just pointing out that long guns are not the end all be all defensive choice for everyone in every home just because they have a bigger "bang" than a pistol.

I'll give an example... a personal example.

In my home I have a fatal tunnel and a deadly crossroads.. both at the same place, the exit from my bedroom. If I use a long gun I cannot pie all 4 corners without exposing myself from at least 2 directions because I can't get the barrel past the corner far enough to shoot at something without showing myself too much. And not without sticking the barrel of a long gun out where it can be grabbed. Not to mention it is a pain to move around without banging the barrel of a long gun against a wall or two.

With a pistol I can stay further back and still pie all those corners much more safely.

Now... perhaps some folks don't have that problem in their house but for those of us who do a long gun becomes a detriment that works against us... not for us. And I'd much rather have a lower powered pistol that I can actually use effectively than a highly powered long gun that I can't get around the corner to use.

But then... each of us needs to evaluate their own homes.. and the hazards built into those homes.. and figure out how to best address those hazards.. and what tool will work the best for addressing those hazards regardless of how big a "bang" it has.

Having the biggest gun in the world won't help if it can't be brought to bear on the threat and actually be used to defend.
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I guess we'll not find common ground to work with here. I have a well-built tactical length shotgun that will always be my go-to HD weapon and you will stick with your sidearm. I personally have no issues properly pieing/clearing/etc. my home with my shotgun and this is something I practice in the dark on a regular basis. I also do shoot my shotty a lot. It's one of my favorite range pieces. Unloading 7+1 shotgun shells is always a good time.

I think if somebody doesn't practice with their long gun theywon't practice much with their sidearm either and it's a wholelot easier to be accurate and quick with long gun than a handgun. If you want to bring training into this, it takes a lot more training to be successful with a handgun in a HD scenario.

I for one do live-fire range drills with my HD shotty at least once a month (usually about 25-50 rds) and fire 700-1500rds a month of handgun drills (about 90% .22lr). I still find myself to be more accurate at any given range with a long gun than a handgun (maybe I just suck). It's just the nature of the beast.

** I'd like to think we're both doing a decent job presenting our side of the argument. I'm interested in seeing what others say. It's a pleasure debating with you and you are a more than worthy opponent. I don't take any of this personally, nor do I think you are ragging on me. This is very serious stuff and honestly, you can never have too much information. That said, eventually you have to pick your system and then practice the heck out of it.
 
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Bikenut

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sevenplusone wrote:
It's a pleasure debating with you and you are a more than worthy opponent. I don't take any of this personally, nor do I think you are ragging on me. This is very serious stuff and honestly, you can never have too much information. That said, eventually you have to pick your system and then practice the heck out of it.
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It has been a pleasure discussing this with you as well.. but I am definitely not your opponent.:)

And you are correct .. this is serious stuff and I try to cover as many bases as possible so folks have as much info as possible before they make their choices.

And that is really all I hope to accomplish with my postings.

Carry on!!!:D
 
Glock9mmOldStyle

Glock9mmOldStyle

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Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
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Just throwing in my 2 cents here. It boils down to what you think you use best in a high stress and all around defensive situation. The most common crime where someone will have to use deadly force is home invasion. That said there are many things to consider, especially since these attacks often take place in the dead of night, usually while the intended victims are in a deep slumber.

1: Response time: you will have (at best) approx. 6 seconds to: arm yourself, take a defensive position, gain your composure and be ready to use your weapon(s).

2: Lighting conditions: In this scenario they play a huge roll. Your eyes may have to adjust to a burst of light as the attacker(s) breech your position. If you do have to fire there is muzzle flash & temporary flash blindness to contend with in low light conditions.

3. Noise: in a close quarter environment, even a smaller caliber pistol discharge can cause your ears to ring. It's very possible you'll have your sight & hearing at a disadvantage.

In short most people prepare for using deadly force in the best possible conditions imagined in their minds. Criminals often don't abide by these.

Choose what makes sense to you, then practice, practice and practice more.
Ask another person to set an alarm for a late night "abrupt wake up call" without telling you when that time will be. See how long it takes you to be ready then work on lowering that time.

I hope none of you ever find yourselves in a low light QCB scenario, but if it happens you can be somewhat prepared.

My personal choice is a pistol gripped, heavily modified 12GA, with a light attached and loaded with "000" buck shot. It is at the ready on a specialty mount that slides under my bed mattress, which allows me to grab it on the fly from my bed.

I want the first shot to do the most damage possible, allowing time to recoup should a second shot be needed. Again, this just my choice, as even one well placed shot from a 22lr at close range can be lethal.
 
stainless1911

stainless1911

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My short XD is ideal for the relatively tight quarters in clearing my single wide. But the biggest advantage the XD has over the 12, is accesability. The XD is always on me, the 12 is always in the corner. My house also is never ever dark. The bedroom is, but thats to my advantage.
 
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sevenplusone

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Kent Co, Michigan, USA
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stainless1911 wrote:
My short XD is ideal for the relatively tight quarters in clearing my single wide. But the biggest advantage the XD has over the 12, is accesability. The XD is always on me, the 12 is always in the corner. My house also is never ever dark. The bedroom is, but thats to my advantage.
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My 12 is within reach from bed, the same can not be said for my 1911. It's cocked and locked in the dresser drawer.
 
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office888

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Apr 23, 2009
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Hartford, MI, ,
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Rifle in my case.

eotech511002.jpg


AR15 loaded with 20 rounds of Hornady TAP 75gr.

Explosive fragmentation, causing lethal one-shot-stops. Also, if I miss, the bullets fragment upon impacting an obstacles. By the 2nd or 3rd piece of wood/drywall, the fragments are no longer flying at lethal speeds.

Buckshot is well known for it's gawdy overpenetration.
Same with 9mm, and 40 S&W.

Nothing says "STOP RIGHT THERE", like being blinded by a Surefire M951, and a 16" rifle barrel in your face.

-Richard-
 
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sevenplusone

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Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
397
Location
Kent Co, Michigan, USA
imported post

office888 wrote:
Rifle in my case.
Click to expand...
AR15 loaded with 20 rounds of Hornady TAP 75gr.

Explosive fragmentation, causing lethal one-shot-stops. Also, if I miss, the bullets fragment upon impacting an obstacles. By the 2nd or 3rd piece of wood/drywall, the fragments are no longer flying at lethal speeds.

Buckshot is well known for it's gawdy overpenetration.
Same with 9mm, and 40 S&W.

Nothing says "STOP RIGHT THERE", like being blinded by a Surefire M951, and a 16" rifle barrel in your face.

-Richard-
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Is that a Springfield GI with aftermarket slide stop and thumb safety? I like the big grips too. It's amazing what a difference those can make when you're trying to go fast. I don't have any on my carry gun, but I do like the way they feel.
 
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office888

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Hartford, MI, ,
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sevenplusone wrote:
Is that a Springfield GI with aftermarket slide stop and thumb safety? I like the big grips too. It's amazing what a difference those can make when you're trying to go fast. I don't have any on my carry gun, but I do like the way they feel.
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Yes it is!

I'm actually going to be switching to Pachmayr grips. The Hogues are much too big for my hands, although I love the feel of them. :(

-Richard-
 
S

sevenplusone

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
397
Location
Kent Co, Michigan, USA
imported post

office888 wrote:
sevenplusone wrote:
Is that a Springfield GI with aftermarket slide stop and thumb safety? I like the big grips too. It's amazing what a difference those can make when you're trying to go fast. I don't have any on my carry gun, but I do like the way they feel.
Click to expand...

Yes it is!

I'm actually going to be switching to Pachmayr grips. The Hogues are much too big for my hands, although I love the feel of them. :(

-Richard-
Click to expand...
I prefer the Pachmayr's too. I use Pachmayrs exclusively on my revolvers.
 
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