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Thread: Are guns REALLY illegal on the DC Mall?

  1. #1
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    been chewing on this question over in general discussion,,,

    Are guns REALLY illegal on the DC Mall? revisited!
    thread got locked due to lack of cites!

    maybe you guys would like to join in...
    best if you go to general discussion and reply in that thread
    so we are all on the same page, rather than starting this new one here!!

    started a new thread, were not done with this topic yet
    even if mike thinks its all cut and dried!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    DC Law prohibits carrying of any modern firearm (i.e., not antique, post 1898 I think) in public unless you are authorized government personnel, i.e., law enforcement or military. The law does not prohibit carrying an antique gun, but I think you can assume you that you will be arrested nevertheless. I will note that I overheard one Park Policeman say there were some muskets in the crowd for the second amendment march. I know I saw some but was not sure whether they were functional.

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    DC gun laws apply to the mall. Thread closed.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    DC gun laws apply to the mall. Thread closed.
    this thread must have reopened after the change over, hmmm.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  5. #5
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    I looked at this really hard. I believe Ianto is mostly right. I think it is antique handguns or replicas thereof. that are not prohibited by the anti-freedom and anti-self protection DC code. Rifles are covered by a seperate law which I believe makes even antiques illegal to possess in public.

    The final answer to this question will come from a court of law. Judge Kennedy still has not ruled in the Palmer v. DC case.

    I am not an attorney. Please don't open carry your 1860 Navy Revolver on the Mall because I think it is legal.
    Last edited by Thundar; 05-15-2011 at 09:11 PM.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    The mall is under the jurisdiction of the United States Park Police and is NPS property. In compliance with the NPS law, the area complies with DC law just like other NPS property conforms to the law of the state the park is in. Firearms are prohibited in DC, hence illegal on the mall as well.
    Last edited by swinokur; 05-16-2011 at 08:14 AM.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Firearms are not prohibited, just over-regulated in DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    The mall is under the jurisdiction of the United States Park Police and is NPS property. In compliance with the NPS law, the area complies with DC law just like other NPS property conforms to the law of the state the park is in. Firearms are prohibited in DC, hence illegal on the mall as well.
    Nobody disputes the USNPS following state laws part. What we are talking about is the DC prohibition part.

    The question of limited open carry of handguns hinges on the question: Are antique handguns, or replicas thereof, prohibited by the DC Code?

    I don't think so. You can look back in the DC page for the threads that discuss this. There are lots of cites in those discussions.

    There is a seperate DC law prohibiting rifles, and it does not refer only to modern rifles. So IMHO we must be more specific than firearms and say antique handguns, or replicas thereof.

    My 1860 Navy revolver really wants to go to D.C. I would take the old gal, but the neanderthals the reside in that sewer would try to make me a felon and melt her down.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianto94 View Post
    DC Law prohibits carrying of any modern firearm (i.e., not antique, post 1898 I think) in public unless you are authorized government personnel, i.e., law enforcement or military. The law does not prohibit carrying an antique gun, but I think you can assume you that you will be arrested nevertheless. I will note that I overheard one Park Policeman say there were some muskets in the crowd for the second amendment march. I know I saw some but was not sure whether they were functional.
    As one of the SAM board members, I know there was at least one and it was carried by a re-enactor for the event. We had to jump through a couple of hopes to get it okayed. We/he used the antique weapon angle.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Arrow

    From DC Code
    DC ST § 7-2505.04
    § 7-2505.04. Prohibition on sale, transfer, ownership, or possession of designated unsafe pistol.

    (a) Except as provided in subsections (c), (d), or (e) of this section, beginning January 1, 2009, a pistol that is not on the California Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, (also known as the California Roster of Handguns Determined Not to be Unsafe), pursuant to California Penal Code § 12131, as of January 1, 2009, may not be manufactured, sold, given, loaned, exposed for sale, transferred, or imported into the District of Columbia.


    (b) Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section, beginning January 1, 2009, a pistol that is not on the California Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale as of January 1, 2009, may not be owned or possessed within the District of Columbia unless that pistol was lawfully owned and registered prior to January 1, 2009.


    (c) Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section, a District of Columbia resident who is the owner of a pistol lawfully registered prior to January 1, 2009, that is not on the California Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale as of January 1, 2009, and who wishes to sell or transfer that pistol after January 1, 2009, may do so only by selling or transferring ownership of the handgun to a licensed dealer.


    (d) Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section, beginning January 1, 2009, a licensed firearm dealer who retains in the dealer's inventory, or who otherwise lawfully acquires, any pistol not on the California Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale as of January 1, 2009, may sell, loan, give, trade, or otherwise transfer the firearm only to another licensed firearm dealer.


    (e) This section shall not apply to:

    (1)d Firearns defined as curios or relics, as defined in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11;

    (2) The purchase of any firearm by any law enforcement officer or agent of the District or the United States;

    (3) Pistols that are designed expressly for use in Olympic target shooting events, as defined by rule;

    (4) Certain single-action revolvers, as defined by rule;

    (5) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm Search Term End that is to be used solely as a prop during the course of a motion picture, television, or video production by an authorized participant in the course of making that production or event or by an authorized employee or agent of the entity producing that production or event;
    The transfer of a lawfully owned and registered firearm for the purposes of cleaning, repair, or servicing of the firearm by a licensed firearm dealer; or

    (7) The possession of a firearm a non-resident of the District of Columbia while temporarily traveling through the District; provided, that the Search Term Begin firearm Search Term End shall be transported in accordance with § 22-4504.02.
    From 27 CFR SS 478-11
    Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories: (a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; (b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and (c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
    Does this clarify?

    IANAL
    Last edited by swinokur; 05-17-2011 at 07:36 AM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    From DC Code
    Does this clarify?

    IANAL
    That is part of it. Keep digging (remember DC Codificatio was not done to be easily comprehended, gun laws even less so. There is more)
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    i feel like I'm on a scavenger hunt. I've dug as deeply as I want to go. Since I'm not headed to the mall, I've done as much as I want to already.

    sorry

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    The code you cut and pasted looks to be the one dealing with registration. What we need to look for is the code that prohibits the carrying of guns.

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    http://dcguncase.com/blog/dc-gun-laws/

    A more complete set of laws.

    The carrying of a pistol (which does not exempt antiques) or any other weapon you can conceal is illegal.

    But IANAL, and didn't stay at the Holiday Inn either.

  14. #14
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    If an antiques is not considered a firearm that must be registered, is it even considered a firearm? DC seems not to think it is. If not considered a firearm for purposes of the law,why would it be prohibited from carry? If an airsoft does not need to be registered, is it prohibited from carry?

    The way I read this, if not considered a firearm that must be registered why can it not be carried?. They don't seem to recognize a difference.

    But IANAL and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn either.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PracticalTactical View Post
    http://dcguncase.com/blog/dc-gun-laws/

    A more complete set of laws.
    Just forget that site. Yes, they've compiled a list of D.C. gun laws, but it's not all of them. When you research laws on the Internet, you have to be very sceptical of .com sites, especially those with "blog" in the URL path. There could be inaccuracies or they're simply outdated.

    D.C.'s official on-line site for current laws is here; and that is linked from the dc.gov web site. It's as close as you can get to the horse's mouth on the Internet. The firearms related laws are in Division I, Title 7, Subtitle J, Chapter 25. Firearms Control; and Division IV, Title 22, Subtitle VI, Chapter 45. Weapons and Possession of Weapons.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Under definitions is listed the following:

    (9) "Firearm" means any weapon, regardless of operability, which will, or is designed or redesigned, made or remade, readily converted, restored, or repaired, or is intended to, expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such device; or any firearm muffler or silencer; provided, that such term shall not include:
    (A) Antique firearms; or

    (B) Destructive devices;

    (C) Any device used exclusively for line throwing, signaling, or safety, and required or recommended by the Coast Guard or Interstate Commerce Commission; or
    Antique Firearm is defined to mean any firearm manufactured prior to 1898.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Under definitions is listed the following:



    Antique Firearm is defined to mean any firearm manufactured prior to 1898.
    If I recall correctly, there are a couple firearms laws that specifically include antique firearms, even though the definition of "firearm" generally does not include antiques. I'll look later if I have time; it's been a couple years since I read all the D.C. laws.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by virginiatuck View Post
    If I recall correctly, there are a couple firearms laws that specifically include antique firearms, even though the definition of "firearm" generally does not include antiques. I'll look later if I have time; it's been a couple years since I read all the D.C. laws.

    Ah, now I remember what I was thinking of. You were looking at the definition of "firearm" in Title 7, Chapter 25, but there's a different one in Title 22, Chapter 45. The bottom line is that antique firearms are not treated differently in Chapter 45 than any other firearm; however, Chapter 45 does not apply to "toys or antique pistols unsuitable for use as firearms" except in § 22-4502, § 22-4504(b), and § 22-4514(b). In short, D.C. has covered their anti-gun bases.

    § 22-4502. Additional penalty for committing crime when armed.
    § 22-4504. Carrying concealed weapons; possession of weapons during commission of crime of violence; penalty.
    § 22-4514. Possession of certain dangerous weapons prohibited; exceptions.


    Here's the definition used in Title 22, Chapter 45:

    DC ST § 22-4501

    Formerly cited as DC ST 1981 § 22-3201

    District of Columbia Official Code 2001 Edition Currentness
    Division IV. Criminal Law and Procedure and Prisoners.

    Title 22. Criminal Offenses and Penalties. (Refs & Annos)

    Subtitle VI. Regulation and Possession of Weapons.

    Chapter 45. Weapons and Possession of Weapons. (Refs & Annos)

    § 22-4501. Definitions.



    For the purposes of this chapter, the term:
    (2A) "Firearm" means any weapon, regardless of operability, which will, or is designed or redesigned, made or remade, readily converted, restored, or repaired, or is intended to, expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosive. The term "firearm" shall not include:
    (1) A destructive device as that term is defined in § 7-2501.01(7);

    (2) A device used exclusively for line throwing, signaling, or safety, and required or recommended by the Coast Guard or Interstate Commerce Commission; or

    (3) A device used exclusively for firing explosive rivets, stud cartridges, or similar industrial ammunition and incapable for use as a weapon.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    I s'pose a C-96 7.63x25mm broomhandle Mauser would really confuse 'em! (1896)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    I s'pose a C-96 7.63x25mm broomhandle Mauser would really confuse 'em! (1896)
    I'd rather have the Broomhandle Mauser over a Cap and Ball revolver.

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