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Thread: Are we going to try to get carrying allowed in Churches next year?

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    So with the victory of being able to get the bill passed to allow concealed carry in restaurants now, are we going to try and get a bill passed to allow it in Churches? This seems like the next step to me. However, I didn't know if it's something anyone else feels needs to be worked towards next.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    hometheaterman wrote:
    So with the victory of being able to get the bill passed to allow concealed carry in restaurants now, are we going to try and get a bill passed to allow it in Churches? This seems like the next step to me. However, I didn't know if it's something anyone else feels needs to be worked towards next.
    With the statute written as it is now, I wouldnt push the issue.
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    Yes, there is always good and sufficent reason to carry.
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
    'Till the last bugle call, sounds taps for us all,
    It's Semper Fidelis, MARINE!

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    streetdoc wrote:
    Yes, there is always good and sufficient reason to carry.

    While what you or I may feel is good an sufficient reason an activist judge may not. My latest CHP clearly states that carry in church is illegal. Without the good an sufficient reason clause attached this may be an attempt to deceive or the judges misinterpretation of the law.

    To me self defense is good and sufficient reason, to a DA or Judge it may not be. Interpretation of a law can be subjective. Just like other lawsunless they are clear as to what the meaning is the final decision as to what the legislature meant is the Judges.



    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Wolf_shadow wrote:
    streetdoc wrote:
    Yes, there is always good and sufficient reason to carry.

    While what you or I may feel is good an sufficient reason an activist judge may not. My latest CHP clearly states that carry in church is illegal. Without the good an sufficient reason clause attached this may be an attempt to deceive or the judges misinterpretation of the law.

    To me self defense is good and sufficient reason, to a DA or Judge it may not be. Interpretation of a law can be subjective. Just like other lawsunless they are clear as to what the meaning is the final decision as to what the legislature meant is the Judges.


    How can a CHP be issued with special conditions? Given that they are "shall issue" if they are issued at all, how is it possible that an issuing judge can modify the conditions set forth in the statute (just for his/her jurisdiction)?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Wolf_shadow wrote:
    My latest CHP clearly states that carry in church is illegal.

    How can that be if 18.2-308 H says....

    "The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police."
    James Reynolds

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    We had a security team presentation at church by a Norfolk police officer. This officer was tasked to create this presentation to give at churches in the area. He stated very clearly that he consulted a commonwealth attorney, and that this attorney stated that it would be impossible to prohibit carry in a church the way that the statute is worded. The officer also clearly stated that he recommends carrying in church.

    I am not a lawyer, and I know that a police officer is not a lawyer. All I am saying is that I don't think there will be any problems coming our way because of carrying in a church. But you have to make up your own mind what you want to do. The statute does not say that you cannot carry in church--it only states that you cannot carry without good and sufficient reason. Yes, there is a little gray in the statute, but what church is going to prosecute a church member who is in good standing?

    I carry every week to church, as do many people that I know.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    hometheaterman wrote:
    So with the victory of being able to get the bill passed to allow concealed carry in restaurants now, are we going to try and get a bill passed to allow it in Churches? This seems like the next step to me. However, I didn't know if it's something anyone else feels needs to be worked towards next.
    With the statute written as it is now, I wouldnt push the issue.
    +1. when I GO i have good and sufficient reason.
    Carry On.

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    What I would like to see changed is to allow carry (with a permit as a first step) on K-12 property. There are a number of churches that meet in public schools, or which have schools on their property.

    Maybe a provision for when the schools are not in session?

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    GLW wrote:
    I am not a lawyer, and I know that a police officer is not a lawyer.
    Not all "police officers" appear to know that.

    If I was to go to church I would carry. If I was to carry it would probably be one of the few times I would choose to conceal.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    GLW wrote:
    I am not a lawyer, and I know that a police officer is not a lawyer. All I am saying is that I don't think there will be any problems coming our way because of carrying in a church. But you have to make up your own mind what you want to do. The statute does not say that you cannot carry in church--it only states that you cannot carry without good and sufficient reason. Yes, there is a little gray in the statute, but what church is going to prosecute a church member who is in good standing?

    I carry every week to church, as do many people that I know.
    The problem here is that it is probably not the church's decision. If you live in an area with a very anti-gun CA, they could still bankrupt you defending yourself. Probably unlikely, I'm just saying.

    TFred

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    Why on earth would anyone want to carry a firearm in a church for self-defense?

    Is it really necessary?

    Well. just maybe:

    3/8/2009, Maryville First Baptist Church, Maryville, Illinois – 1 dead 12/12/2008, New Hope Missionary Baptist Church, Portland, Oregon – 1 wounded
    11/23/2008, St. Thomas Syrian Orthodox Knanaya Church, Clifton, New Jersey – 3 wounded
    7/27/2008, Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, Knoxville, Tennessee – 1 dead, 8 wounded
    6/26/2008, Trinity United Methodist Church, Clearfield, Pennsylvania – 1 wounded
    6/23/2008, Pentecostal Assembly of God Church, Arecibo, Puerto Rico - 2 wounded
    5/26/2008, St. Mary Coptic Church, Elkton, Maryland – 1 dead
    5/17/2008, St. John Baptist de la Salle Roman Catholic Church, Los Angeles, California – 3 wounded
    3/20/2008, Assembly of the Saints Church, Suitland, Maryland – 2 wounded
    12/10/2007, New Life Church, Colorado Springs, Colorado - 2 dead, 4 wounded
    8/13/2007, First Congregational Church, Neosho, Missouri - 3 dead, 5 wounded
    2/26/2006, Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church, Detroit, Michigan – 2 dead, 1 wounded
    9/16/1999, Wedgewood Baptist Church, Fort Worth, Texas – 7 dead


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    Statkowski wrote:
    Why on earth would anyone want to carry a firearm in a church for self-defense?

    Is it really necessary?

    Well. just maybe:

    3/8/2009, Maryville First Baptist Church, Maryville, Illinois – 1 dead 12/12/2008, New Hope Missionary Baptist Church, Portland, Oregon – 1 wounded
    11/23/2008, St. Thomas Syrian Orthodox Knanaya Church, Clifton, New Jersey – 3 wounded
    7/27/2008, Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, Knoxville, Tennessee – 1 dead, 8 wounded
    6/26/2008, Trinity United Methodist Church, Clearfield, Pennsylvania – 1 wounded
    6/23/2008, Pentecostal Assembly of God Church, Arecibo, Puerto Rico - 2 wounded
    5/26/2008, St. Mary Coptic Church, Elkton, Maryland – 1 dead
    5/17/2008, St. John Baptist de la Salle Roman Catholic Church, Los Angeles, California – 3 wounded
    3/20/2008, Assembly of the Saints Church, Suitland, Maryland – 2 wounded
    12/10/2007, New Life Church, Colorado Springs, Colorado - 2 dead, 4 wounded
    8/13/2007, First Congregational Church, Neosho, Missouri - 3 dead, 5 wounded
    2/26/2006, Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church, Detroit, Michigan – 2 dead, 1 wounded
    9/16/1999, Wedgewood Baptist Church, Fort Worth, Texas – 7 dead
    QFGASR

    Quoted for Good and Sufficient reason.

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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    Statkowski wrote:
    Why on earth would anyone want to carry a firearm in a church for self-defense?

    Is it really necessary?

    Well. just maybe:

    3/8/2009, Maryville First Baptist Church, Maryville, Illinois – 1 dead 12/12/2008, New Hope Missionary Baptist Church, Portland, Oregon – 1 wounded
    11/23/2008, St. Thomas Syrian Orthodox Knanaya Church, Clifton, New Jersey – 3 wounded
    7/27/2008, Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, Knoxville, Tennessee – 1 dead, 8 wounded
    6/26/2008, Trinity United Methodist Church, Clearfield, Pennsylvania – 1 wounded
    6/23/2008, Pentecostal Assembly of God Church, Arecibo, Puerto Rico - 2 wounded
    5/26/2008, St. Mary Coptic Church, Elkton, Maryland – 1 dead
    5/17/2008, St. John Baptist de la Salle Roman Catholic Church, Los Angeles, California – 3 wounded
    3/20/2008, Assembly of the Saints Church, Suitland, Maryland – 2 wounded
    12/10/2007, New Life Church, Colorado Springs, Colorado - 2 dead, 4 wounded
    8/13/2007, First Congregational Church, Neosho, Missouri - 3 dead, 5 wounded
    2/26/2006, Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church, Detroit, Michigan – 2 dead, 1 wounded
    9/16/1999, Wedgewood Baptist Church, Fort Worth, Texas – 7 dead
    When I was still on the job, I talked to a lady that was inside the Detroit church in 2006 when the shooting took place. There were two Detroit cops providing security. One was outside and the other failed to take a clear shot from about 40 feet which could have minimized the damage. I think that the keyis not justcarrying a gun in church, but for the church elders to recognize the risks and have a good plan in place. From my experience, for every church that does, there are many hundreds that do not.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I have to agree that the existing statute is pretty good.
    While it could be firmed up some, I think there are more pressing matters for next years session.

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    However, if your church meets at a public school...

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    To me the problem with the existing statue is while we may see it as good and sufficient reason It doesn't seem like many judges would. So if anything does happen it leaves it very open for you to be in a lot of trouble.

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    hometheaterman wrote:
    To me the problem with the existing statue is while we may see it as good and sufficient reason It doesn't seem like many judges would. So if anything does happen it leaves it very open for you to be in a lot of trouble.
    Well, not a whole lot of trouble exactly. It is a class 4 misdemeanor - up to a $250 fine, no jail time. But we need to get rid of that law altogether. This year Delegate Cole tried it, but he also tied it to the restaurant ban repeal. It needs to have its own separate bill.

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    streetdoc wrote:
    Yes, there is always good and sufficent reason to carry.
    +1 Agree 100% leave it be. Parking lots of employers are WAY more important!!

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    Maybe talk to the Pastor, priest etc and see how they feel. Tell them something about wanting to show to the people that the same evil weapons used to enslave them are also used to defend and protect them.

    Invaders had swords. So did the Knights stopping them. The evil is not in the tool but the soul of the person wielding it.

    I would agree about the k-12 carry being higher importance. Have two little sisters and a crap load of things that go around here at schools such as bake sales, garden sales etc have to disarm first to attend.

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    Uber_Olafsun wrote:
    I would agree about the k-12 carry being higher importance.
    This would solve quite a lot!

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    VCDL President wrote:
    hometheaterman wrote:
    To me the problem with the existing statue is while we may see it as good and sufficient reason It doesn't seem like many judges would. So if anything does happen it leaves it very open for you to be in a lot of trouble.
    Well, not a whole lot of trouble exactly. It is a class 4 misdemeanor - up to a $250 fine, no jail time. But we need to get rid of that law altogether. This year Delegate Cole tried it, but he also tied it to the restaurant ban repeal. It needs to have its own separate bill.
    Do you lose your CHP if you get convicted of a misdemeanor like this? Or is it really no bad side effects other than a $250 fine?

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    Uber_Olafsun wrote:

    I would agree about the k-12 carry being higher importance. Have two little sisters and a crap load of things that go around here at schools such as bake sales, garden sales etc have to disarm first to attend.
    While I agree with this being important I can't see it getting changed in the near future. I hope I'm wrong though.

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    hometheaterman wrote:
    VCDL President wrote:
    hometheaterman wrote:
    To me the problem with the existing statue is while we may see it as good and sufficient reason It doesn't seem like many judges would. So if anything does happen it leaves it very open for you to be in a lot of trouble.
    Well, not a whole lot of trouble exactly. It is a class 4 misdemeanor - up to a $250 fine, no jail time. But we need to get rid of that law altogether. This year Delegate Cole tried it, but he also tied it to the restaurant ban repeal. It needs to have its own separate bill.
    Do you lose your CHP if you get convicted of a misdemeanor like this? Or is it really no bad side effects other than a $250 fine?
    You won't lose your CHP over a class 4 misdemeanor.


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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    hometheaterman wrote:
    Uber_Olafsun wrote:

    I would agree about the k-12 carry being higher importance. Have two little sisters and a crap load of things that go around here at schools such as bake sales, garden sales etc have to disarm first to attend.
    While I agree with this being important I can't see it getting changed in the near future. I hope I'm wrong though.
    Agree. Too many think of the children things.

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