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Thread: no surprise there

  1. #1
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    I can easily see that its a pistol. I feel that having a gun totally concealed but easily
    positioned for use is far more of an advantage. I've read stories of those people
    who had a gun in sight were usually the first target in a crime. I would rather be the
    person who no one knows if I have a gun or not on me. In a situation where I would
    need to use my weapon it would be the criminal who is surprised and not me. Concealed has many more advantages than open carry.

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    Regular Member metalman383's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing your opinion. Have a nice day.

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    you know thats a personal choice. your one stat doesnt prove CCW is beter( i get into that in a minute), but regardless if your right or not. why are you posting this on here? i mean sounds to me that your just looking for a fight, you didnt even word it like your trying to get others opionions on the subject. personally i think that OC and CCW supporters should be working together not against eachother. even though you come off that your not going to be that way.

    i mean if your going to be looking for an arguement why not target something like the brady campaing or some other anti gun support group. we got enough gun haters to be defending against let alonehaving other gun support groups be fighting eachother. i do believe if we want to get our gun rights we got to work as a group. if were fighting eachother the anti gun ppl are going to just use that against us.

    i not going to go into much detail but you used that one stat that OC ppl are the first ppl to be shot. but if your going to use those stats you need all of them. like the stats on how many criminals would of targeted a store but saw a OC person and left. and how about a stats on ppl who CCW but since they had it concealed it took a bit longer to get their gun out, causing the criminal to win due to just having the advantage of having a gun drawn. since a gun does no good if you cant get it out in time. i mean look at it this way. if you had one guy OC and another CCW in a gun draw, and they both had the same amount of skill. i put money on that the OC would have the gun drawn first just b/c its easier to get to.

    and then you also need to get the stats on how many ppl had their gun catch on their cloths while trying to get it from concealment.

    i dont think you be able to really prove stat wise which is beter. i just listed just a couple of stats i thought you needed off the top of my head, i sure i missing some. but i know one reason for me to OC is that you cant promote carrying while CCW . i got 2 ppl i didnt even know to start carrying. they saw me OC and didnt know that they could OC legally. and after they came up to me and asked me they said they were going to OC or CCW. but had i been CCW i would of never got them to.

    there is a lot more then that one stat that comes into play when deciding to OC or CCW. i do both. i mean i mainly do OC but there been a couple places like with some family member that dont like guns that i CCW just so i dont offend them when i with them. why do you got to justify that CCW is beter.

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    GaryE wrote:
    I can easily see that its a pistol. I feel that having a gun totally concealed but easily
    positioned for use is far more of an advantage. I've read stories of those people
    who had a gun in sight were usually the first target in a crime. I would rather be the
    person who no one knows if I have a gun or not on me. In a situation where I would
    need to use my weapon it would be the criminal who is surprised and not me. Concealed has many more advantages than open carry.
    You have your opinion, we have ours. They do not agree with your conclusions yet are not incompatible or in opposition to each other. While many of us advocate OC and encourage it, very few are vehemently arguing that it is the only way to carry.

    For you, tactical advantage is more of a consideration than for us. Great! Carry everyday, stay alert, be prepared and aware of the environment around you. My advice to you though is to pour your energy into Pro-2A activities like supporting good candidates, talking with your friends about your beliefs (consistent with retaining your secret) and donating to the NRA and other pro gun groups.

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    GaryE wrote:
    I've read stories of those people who had a gun in sight were usually the first target in a crime.
    That's funny. I've never seen one of these stories. Would you care to share a link to themwith us?

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    About the first post. Hey GaryE what's your purpose here? Did you read about how to post things here? Maybe your in the wrong thread?

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    GaryE wrote:
    GE: <snip> I feel that having a gun totally concealed but easily
    positioned for use is far more of an advantage.
    Bat: Ever have a gun hang up on your clothing while trying to draw? Also takes more time because you first have to manipulate your cloths, then engage the arm, by now you could have been identified as a threat by the BG and eliminated.
    GE:I've read stories of those people who had a gun in sight were usually the first target in a crime.
    Bat: What stories are those? Cite or provide one solid case, LINK to a sourrce where this has actually happened and been documented. This statement is 100% fantasy - PROVE YOUR POINT.
    GE: I would rather be the person who no one knows if I have a gun or not on me.
    Bat: This only sets a condition, where the Bad Guy, if he choses to engage you as a victim, forces you to draw and shoot. Open Carry acts as a deterrent, and thus prevents / avoids conflict prior to it becoming a condition of you being an active target now forced to defend life and limb.
    GE: In a situation where I would need to use my weapon it would be the criminal who is surprised and not me.
    Bat: False... Under the conditionswhere you would be forced to draw a weapon, you would first need to be actively engaged as a victim, or put into a sudden violent situation protecting others. Neither one of these scenarios will come with warning, and it will be you sir who is surprised and acting out of reaction. This will include loss of fine motor skills, visual and sensory impairment, shock, disorientation etc...... Return to my question: Have you ever had a weapon hang up on your clothing?
    GE: Concealed has many more advantages than open carry.
    Bat: Maybe you can outline exactly what the advantages are? I do CC when it's raining, or if circumstance dictates Concealed to be more prudent, however, no exact advantage exists other than person preference. If you were to take the personal preference as your sole reasoning, well then, good to go.
    Maybe in the future, do some research and homework, cite some facts and link sometangibleinformation that has been proven. Otherwise your simply spouting a personal opinion based on either emotion, fear, or magical "what if" scenarios, none of which has any real bearing on the living world.

    Bat
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    GaryE wrote:
    I can easily see that its a pistol. I feel that having a gun totally concealed but easily
    positioned for use is far more of an advantage. I've read stories of those people
    who had a gun in sight were usually the first target in a crime. I would rather be the
    person who no one knows if I have a gun or not on me. In a situation where I would
    need to use my weapon it would be the criminal who is surprised and not me. Concealed has many more advantages than open carry.
    Troll.

    The least you could do is post this in the right section. Why would you join a site just to start a debate? You clearly have no other purpose for being here.

    I'm done. Let's not feed the Troll anymore.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Two hole posts at the time,,,TROLL carry concealed or OC,,up to you but troll yer butt somewhere's else
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    oh yea well one time i was playing modern warfare and and!!!!! yea i'll say it to troll.
    HOOAH?

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    GaryE wrote:
    I can easily see that its a pistol. I feel that having a gun totally concealed but easily positioned for use is far more of an advantage. I've read stories of those people who had a gun in sight were usually the first target in a crime. I would rather be the person who no one knows if I have a gun or not on me. In a situation where I would need to use my weapon it would be the criminal who is surprised and not me. Concealed has many more advantages than open carry.

    Concealed has many more advantages than open carry.
    Yet, you fail to list all of these advantages.

    Such as the wonderful advantage of having to dig underneath layers of clothing to form a solid firing grasp on your weapon and withdraw it from this concealment without gripping part of your shirt tail along with the stocks of your weapon, or snagging your rear sights on anything?

    That doesn't really sound like an advantage to me.

    How about the advantage of looking just like all the other helpless victims? You seem to think this is a BENEFIT.

    If your entire wish is to NOT have an attempt made on your life in the first place, how is looking like a helpless victim going to prevent this?

    Surprise? I thought surprise was an OFFENSIVE tactic? I'm interested in DEFENSE. I want to AVOID the necessity of having to use mine in the first place. Evidently, you WANT to sucker folks into confrontations and then have an advantage in the resulting confrontation.

    Well, your OFFENSIVE tactic might be fine for those of you wishing to gamble with your lives in an attempt to see if you can kill someone, but I choose not to try and bait folks so I can kill them. My intent is to AVOID the necessity.

    By the way: If open carry is so dangerous, why aren't ALL cops undercover so they can conceal their weapons?

    You mean they are a deterrent? I thought this would only make them the first ones shot?

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    JTHunter wrote:
    The one main advantage that I feel CC gives you is the "surprise factor". Being able to get the drop on the perp because they didn't know you were packing :what:may be enough of an advantage so you don't even have to fire and just disarm the perp.

    Sorry, this is wrong info, the chance of any "Surprise" is very very slim. NOTE: I do CC when weather or circumstance dictates it being prudent. HOWEVER, absolutely ZERO percent advantage exists over this mythical "surprise factor". The simple fact is this...

    - If you are ina situation that demands you produce a firearm for defence, then you are already being either victimised, attacked, or are in the an incredibly hostile situation. Analyse for a minute, theconcept of that hostile condition having one: Already manifested prior to your ability to foresee a threatorprepair a reaction- two: Probably the offending perpetrator had focused his attack on you, or has gained a tactical advantage throughadvantageous timingand -three: has now an incredibly heightened sense of awareness required to keep his situation under control.

    - So, where in there do you actually get to surprise the attacker. Probably "going for your gun" would get you shot as you shuffle under your clothing and try to get your concealed weapon into play against the offender who is likely watching you closely, and ready to take immediate remedial action against you.

    - The misconception of there being an element of "surprise" when you are actively being victimised carries no logic, and fundamentally makes no sense.

    - Unless you are actively hunting bad guys, non of us will have the element of surprise in a defensive situation. It simply does not work that way.

    - OPEN CARRY in and of itself may not stop an attacker, however the chance of the offender choosing a potentially deadly victim is very unlikely when there are many other un-armed victims out there.

    - One more simple point regarding CC. Being CC, you look un-armed, and thus the attacker would have to actively engage you prior to you producing the arm and thus be forced to fire it now that your engaged in an armed conflict. Compare: as opposed to being OC, where you more than likely would simply have been a deterrent, and thus avoiding the armed conflict in the first place.

    Re-Think it - we need to get over this myth of having any "surprise" when it is us as citizens who would be at a disadvantage tactically.

    Bat

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    I don't want to "surprise!" anyone, at least not on the topic of having a firearm.

    I would much rather encourage the mindset of: "Aw, ****. That homey is packing heat, fool. Get the hell outta' here, peeps."

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    So, summing up:

    OC Advantages:

    * Deterrent value of displayed weapon at individual and area level. (Proven)

    * Ease of access for draw/presentation and target acquisition. (Obvious)

    * Lawfully contributing to the education of individualson rights & freedoms we enjoy.

    OC Disadvantages:

    * Unproven speculation thatOC results in preemptive targeting by criminals.

    * Possible adverse reactions of individuals, both crimnal and citizen,in the area.

    * Loss of tactical element (surprise) when forced to draw while the crime is underway.



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    from my opinion, CC gives more room for mistake, any extra layer (clothing) or in a pocket, adds time to your ability to draw and shoot. In a situation of ambush one may find oneself fumbling for the firearm. OC is not commonly known to many out in California, may it be an average joe/jane or a criminal waiting to spring on prey, the sight of a gun is uncomfortable. I'm not saying CC does not offer its pros, i just think OC out - pros CC.

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    There is a thread somewhere around this forum about a certain striker-fired DAO action pistol, which said weapon I found to be intriguing. Inexpensive and well-made-in-the-USA, great safety features, dependable from all accounts. BUT!

    When I downloaded and read the manual, there was an admonishment at the end that "firearms should never be displayed publicly"

    I wonder if they set up at gun shows?

    In my view, here in Virginia the fact that one never knows who is carrying CC is augmented by those who carry OC, thus reminding the BGs that here in the Commonwealth, lots of folks are armed.

    The attitude of the CC-only crowd reminds me of Lily Tomlin's "Boston Lady" on the old "Laugh-in" show. You know, the stuck-up woman who kept insisting that everything be "tasteful"? Sheesh. IMO there is nothing more "tasteful" than a quality firearm in a quality holster. Some of these CC-only folks would, I am convinced, walk down the street in an Hawaiian shirt and plaid shorts with dress shoes and black socks and think themselves "tasteful" because their firearm was out of view...

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    JTHunter wrote:
    The one main advantage that I feel CC gives you is the "surprise factor". Being able to get the drop on the perp because they didn't know you were packing :what:may be enough of an advantage so you don't even have to fire and just disarm the perp.
    Disarm the perp? 'Get the drop...? What? The only surprise factor will be your own whenyour lights go out. Your fantasies are not realities.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    JTHunter wrote:
    The one main advantage that I feel CC gives you is the "surprise factor". Being able to get the drop on the perp because they didn't know you were packing :what:may be enough of an advantage so you don't even have to fire and just disarm the perp.
    Disarm the perp? 'Get the drop...? What? The only surprise factor will be your own whenyour lights go out. Your fantasies are not realities.
    There's that other "surprise factor", too.

    The one where you soil you shorts while the BG holds his own gun to your temple.

    One of the advantages of OC is that it has a residual deterrant effect for others around you.

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    Regular Member Huck's Avatar
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    GaryE wrote:
    I've read stories of those people who had a gun in sight were usually the first target in a crime.
    You've read about such things have you? Funny, I've never heard/read of any such thing in years of websurfing.

    BTW, you would'nt happen to have any links to back up your statement would you? Do you? Can you?
    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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    Batousaii wrote:
    JTHunter wrote:
    The one main advantage that I feel CC gives you is the "surprise factor". Being able to get the drop on the perp because they didn't know you were packing :what:may be enough of an advantage so you don't even have to fire and just disarm the perp.

    Sorry, this is wrong info, the chance of any "Surprise" is very very slim. NOTE: I do CC when weather or circumstance dictates it being prudent. HOWEVER, absolutely ZERO percent advantage exists over this mythical "surprise factor". The simple fact is this...

    - If you are ina situation that demands you produce a firearm for defence, then you are already being either victimised, attacked, or are in the an incredibly hostile situation. Analyse for a minute, theconcept of that hostile condition having one: Already manifested prior to your ability to foresee a threatorprepair a reaction- two: Probably the offending perpetrator had focused his attack on you, or has gained a tactical advantage throughadvantageous timingand -three: has now an incredibly heightened sense of awareness required to keep his situation under control.

    - So, where in there do you actually get to surprise the attacker. Probably "going for your gun" would get you shot as you shuffle under your clothing and try to get your concealed weapon into play against the offender who is likely watching you closely, and ready to take immediate remedial action against you.

    - The misconception of there being an element of "surprise" when you are actively being victimised carries no logic, and fundamentally makes no sense.

    - Unless you are actively hunting bad guys, non of us will have the element of surprise in a defensive situation. It simply does not work that way.

    - OPEN CARRY in and of itself may not stop an attacker, however the chance of the offender choosing a potentially deadly victim is very unlikely when there are many other un-armed victims out there.

    - One more simple point regarding CC. Being CC, you look un-armed, and thus the attacker would have to actively engage you prior to you producing the arm and thus be forced to fire it now that your engaged in an armed conflict. Compare: as opposed to being OC, where you more than likely would simply have been a deterrent, and thus avoiding the armed conflict in the first place.

    Re-Think it - we need to get over this myth of having any "surprise" when it is us as citizens who would be at a disadvantage tactically.

    Bat
    i not sure that totally correct. while i think that the "suprise" factor is way over played. there are some situations where there is.

    for instance if the attacker gets to you with his gun drawn at you. and you havent got your gun out yet. at this point he have several shots off on yah if you go for that gun, you be beter off trying to work with him and hope he just wanting your cash if your open carrying in this issue. he is not going to let you bring your hand close to that gun if he sees your gun. but i do see an advantage of CC in this situation where you could mabye make an attempt to go for it while telling him your geting your wallet or something of value or whatever he wants from your pocket or whever your gun is close. while you still be risking it. but this way he might let get your hands to the gun atleast. while if you were OC he wouldnt let you make a move in that direction. i think if i had it concealed and i had my holster next to my pocket i could get it pulled and do a point and shoot real quick, especially if you just pulled it out of the holster and just point and shot, just plain out shoot through your shirt dont spend the time pulling it from underneath and if your shirt hangs pretty freely where it dosent hug the shape of the gun and it covers the pants pocket so he cant tell you didnt even go for the pants pocket.he might not realize in timewhat you got in your hand if you just shoot threw the shirt.even if you dont like that idea of shooting thew your cloths. atleast you can get your hand to your gun mabye without him knowing. while OC he notice your hang going for the gun, you be lucky to just get to the gun let alone get it drawn and to fire.

    i OC, i nottrying to defend him( i never try to defend that gary while he just trying to start ****)or CC. i try to reason fairly and i feel like that there is a suprise factor. not as much as ppl always say there is when they are trying to defend CC .i just dont know if you can state that there is no suprise factor at all in any situation. and yah the chances of that happening might be slim but you never know when the attacker is going to come and you gotta consider that he might get his weapon out first. unless you think there no way that the attacker will suprise you with his gun out befor eyou notice thats a very likely scenerio that he gets the gun out before you even get to yours. i mean you paying attention to your kids, a hot girl passing by , etc and you being distracted might give that BG the time to come up to you. or what if he comes up from behind. i just think that there is a chance that that suprise or the fact that the BG dosent know your packing can come to your advantage.


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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    heya Goal,

    - I understand your premise, however, what i said was that there is a "very slim" chance of surprising an offender. I also said absolutelyzero percent advantage exists over this mythical "surprise factor" (when comparing CC to OC.)

    - Simply put, your either engaged with the offender, or your not. If your not engaged, then you have a chance to surprise the offender, and being CC or OC will not enhance your ability to surprise the offender. If you are however engaged, your chance of surprise will be greatly limited, and if CC, you have to hope, same as OC, that your ability to draw and fire will be faster than his ability to react, and either way, there is a high chance you will still get shot (or shot at) , probably both of you will be shot at. Realise here, that people do not get thrown back, nor do they always goinstantly unconscious or die from being shot. The sight of an offender being shot, and standing there with a "WTF" look on his face can be very eye opening. Even with rifles, this can be the case, please note the 5.56 rounds ballistics, and read some feedback from soldiers (or former)other than myself to cite this phenomenon.

    Ballistically speaking, unless you get a square shot to the offenders brain, the chance of him firing the weapon, even if as a reflex, is unfortunately high. Thus one would probably get shot (or shot at), even if we got the gun out and shot him first. The realistic chance of shooting an engaged and focused offender without being shot atourselves is slim. This also assumes you are in close proximity, as is common in a mugging or personal attack. I do however see and acknowledge the slim chance of surprise... example, being ina store, and the offender has not realised your there. This too, would not change the surprise factor in OC v CC. Simply put, if the offender has seen you, he will try to control your efforts. If in that scenario, being controlled, the offender will indeed be in a heightened state of alert and awareness. Whether you are trying to sneak the gun out from under your cloths, or quick draw your OC weapon, you would have a very slim chance, and i'd say either would "surprise" the offender equally so, as the only real surprise would be him being shot, not necessarily the production of a victims weapon. Also note, in this day and age, the chance of being brutally beaten before any demands are actually made are very high. Criminals have become more violent, more intense, and some dont actually want anything other than to hurt people for their own pleasure.

    To end, i OC as much as i can, but i do CC where or when it is prudent. Having been shootingguns since i was 12 (now 41), 6 years Infantry, and shot even more guns and countless thousands of rounds as a civilian, i would firmly state: You are either armed or not. The only thing contingent on ones ability to surprise an offender is how focus the offender is upon you, and how fast you can think and act under extreme life threatening stress. Being CC or OC rarely plays role in this.

    What might one feel when suddenly thrust into a violent life threatening scenario against an attacker? Random Impulsive reactions, run, scream, yell, fight, freeze, pass out. Many experience loss of coordination, weakness, Dizziness, tunnel vision, weapon focus (cant take eyes off attacker weapon), Time distortion (feeling like slow motion - or it's all happening too fast), nausea, vomiting, memory loss distortion, wild random emotions. ~ NOTE: everyone is different, and not everyone feels all or any of these. However, the likely hoodone will be subjected to at least some of theseaffects areincredibly high, and though invarrying degrees depending on the person, you simply wont be yourself at that moment.

    So note the paragraph above, and i will mention. Most people will react the way they have trained. When confronted with deadly violence, your brain will go into fail-safe mode. Your brain will say "this is the scenario" - then it will search ultra fast for a programmed response (training). If none is available, it will pick a random response and one or some of the above stated reactions will come into play. This is of course contingent upon one's own intestinal fortitude, how well you personally can deal with that level of stress, and how easily you can think while dealing with extreme duress. So, then, ask yourself, how sneaky do you believe you can be under these circumstances. Most people postulate these events while they are calm, dreaming up scenarios (well if this happens, i would just do this or that!). Reality is simply, you will not usually be thinking for yourself in these situations. Your training, instinct and impulse will be thinking for you. Your mental and intestinal fortitude will help, and will modify the adverse affects, but you will still rely heavily on training, instinct and impulse.

    As my last note, please do not take any of this as an insult, or as an affront or a challenge to your intelligence. I simply know alot about ballistics, combat, guns, and have pretty good understanding of the human psyche, especially as it pertains to combat or extreme duress.

    Kindly

    Bat.
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    JTHunter wrote:
    The one main advantage that I feel CC gives you is the "surprise factor". Being able to get the drop on the perp because they didn't know you were packing :what:may be enough of an advantage so you don't even have to fire and just disarm the perp.
    Disarm the perp? 'Get the drop...? What? The only surprise factor will be your own whenyour lights go out. Your fantasies are not realities.
    + a bajillion

    CCing is only good in the minds of those who have never actually had to draw. I openly admit that I used to be a CCing "I'm so special becasue the Gov granted me a privilege" looking for any excuse to maintain my 'only one' status, grasping at straws, insulting OC. I was that guy.

    Until it happened to me. 4 times. All in the good, expensive side of town where these things don't get reported, but they do happen. Thugs in the ghetto aren't stupid. They don't stay in 'the bad part of town' robbing each other of the nothing they have. They know where the money is and they go get it. It just gets censored to keep property value high.

    I had to learn the hard way. And I can own up to that horrible shortcoming in myself. I believe that may have been the worst thing I have ever done, or been, in my entire life. I look back at that attitude and realize that murderers, rapists, and child molesters were downright admirable people compared to me at that time.

    CC is better than nothing, but nothing is the only thing it is better than.
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    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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