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Thread: An idea worth exploring?

  1. #1
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    READ THIS 1st.. Before flaming me anew.. skip to page 2 and read the last few posts..
    I was just tying up a loose thread as it were.


    I was lying in bed last nite thinking.. "What would be a good, straight to the point, make 'em think method of educating business owners (or just the general public for that matter) who have posted "no firearms" signs or expressed anti OC or CC sentiments..?" Then it came to me.. Bright Fluorescent Yellow index cards.. handed out to cashiers or given to Managers if available after your transaction has concluded.. (Bear with me.. )

    We'd need to come up with some snappy yet non threatening wording on a bright yellow piece of paper.. A business card would work if we can fit all the needed text on it.. an index card might be needed however..

    The wording would be something like:

    On one side.. "BANG!

    On the other side.. "You just got killed by a thug illegally concealing a gun.. too bad you don't allow law abiding citizens to carry in your establishment.. so they could have protected not only themselves but you as well.. Criminals don't obey laws or signs..."

    Perhaps another card could be made to hand out to random people with a similar msg..

    On one side.. "BANG!"

    and on the other.. "You just got killed by a mugger.. Didn't see that coming did ya? If you'd been armed and open carrying a pistol, your attacker more than likely would have left you alone.."

    ...or something to those effects..

    Thoughts? Critiques? Condemnations?

    -Adam

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    I received the following as a Private Msg so I've removed the sender's screen name to protect their privacy.. if they wish to acknowledge the sending in the thread.. that's up to them.. not sure why a Private msg was felt to be necessary...

    _____Original Message_____
    From: xxxxxxxx
    Date: 2010-05-02 16:19:53
    Subject: 3x5 card??

    ( snip of Original Post )

    Adam,

    Welcome to OCDO. Thanks for thinking about a common issue, and for thinking outside the box.

    Seriously, you need to go back and think a bit more. Imagine a blue-haired granny who read one of the cards you propose handing out. What's she gonna do -- have an epifany and suddenly realize she needs to run down to the gun store and get her a heater, or think you just handed her a threat to kill/rob her?

    There are a number of places that sell "No Guns - No $$" business cards. Buckeye Firearms is generally considered to be the originator of them so I'm giving you a link to them http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Gun-Stuff-Mall#ngnm . If you want you can get permission from them to make them specific to your state.

    Another, more "street theater" method has been to make up something like a return address label that ways something along the lines of "WARNING/Beyond This Point/Only Criminals Have Guns" (the "/" indicates a new line"). Stick them on the entrances either over the "No Guns" sign or at eye level. It's certainly going to annoy the property owner who has to scrape it off, but it might get someone's attention before that happens.

    Please don't think I'm trying to discourage your efforts. All I'm saying is continue to think it out a bit before going with the first thing that pops into your head. Remember, we (the "movement") are more interested in education than in scare tactics.

    Keep up the good fight.

    stay safe.

    xxxxxxxx
    Now.. in response to:
    or think you just handed her a threat to kill/rob her?
    I DID make it clear that I was looking for input on what could be on the card and that the wording of course needed to be something non threatening.. I wasn't going to go with the 1st thing that popped into my head as you later said. My goal is not to employ a "scare tactic". More a "wow.. never thought about it like that" tactic..

    As to you other street theater method.. I would consider that almost borderline if not outright vandalism or defacing of private property.. I do have a "Gun Free Zone.. Attention Criminals, all patrons and staff have been disarmed for your convenience" sign that I SHOW to owners of businesses.. but I would never dream of defacing their front door with it.

    -Adam

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    I don't think either idea is very good. The original because it could be considered a threat. And the second because it is outright vandalism. Someone had suggested once about printing up business cards that said something like "I just spent $_______(fill in the blink with however much you spent) on groceries at _____________(name of store that allows OC)
    then something about the reason why they got your business instead of the anti gun store. And drop one off every time you go shopping. If it a small store and enough people give them the cards it could change their minds.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    In my home state (North Carolina), you would probably be charged with "Communicating Threats", which is a a Class 1 Misdemeanor, and would result in having you CHP revoked and you would also become ineligible to purchase firearms...

    N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-277.1. Communicating threats.(1999)
    (a) A person is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if without lawful authority:
    (1) He willfully threatens to physically injure the person or that person's child, sibling, spouse, or dependent or willfully threatens to damage the property of another;
    (2) The threat is communicated to the other person, orally, in writing, or by any other means;
    (3) The threat is made in a manner and under circumstances which would cause a reasonable person to believe that the threat is likely to be carried out; and
    (4) The person threatened believes that the threat will be carried out.
    (b) A violation of this section is a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    [/b]

    [/b]
    Your idea is stupid, inflammatory, and potentially illegal in many jurisdictions. Ideas like this have no place in the "toolbox" of law-abiding, civil 2A activists.

    IF you're going to try a prank like that, I'd suggest getting a good lawyer on retainer, and bringing along a video crew, so at least you could put up the defense that you were doing it as a media-approved publicity stunt to prove a point.

    But it would still be a dumb idea....
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    addressing Hillmann's post 1st..

    Hillmann wrote:
    I don't think either idea is very good. The original because it could be considered a threat..
    (snip)

    I still don't see how.. A card saying "hey.. you just got mugged.." when they obviously didn't, and you ( the card giver ) have already by this time walked away.. so.. no threat.. I dunno..

    Now.. a card that said just, "You're dead" or something with no explanation? Yeah I would take that as a threat too..

    Oddly enough the idea occurred when I was thinking about Civil War Re-enactments and how they get the soldiers to play dead at the right time.. I've heard that they are issued their "cartridges" depending on where they are to be deployed on the field.. and when they get to that "Red Paper cartridge" that means they just got killed..


    And now onto this lovely gem..

    Dreamer wrote:
    In my home state (North Carolina), you would probably be charged with "Communicating Threats", which is a a Class 1 Misdemeanor, and would result in having you CHP revoked and you would also become ineligible to purchase firearms...

    (snip of the legalisms)
    OK well.. that's your home state.. I still don't think it would apply..

    Ya know.. I was all set to discuss the issue then I came across the rest of your post below..

    Your idea is stupid, inflammatory, and potentially illegal in many jurisdictions. Ideas like this have no place in the "toolbox" of law-abiding, civil 2A activists.

    IF you're going to try a prank like that, I'd suggest getting a good lawyer on retainer, and bringing along a video crew, so at least you could put up the defense that you were doing it as a media-approved publicity stunt to prove a point.

    But it would still be a dumb idea....
    Woah.. Let's back up a few steps here..

    Never once did I say "Hey I'm gonna do this!" It's called brainstorming you.......(must control keystroke of doom..) no.. I'm not going to dignify you with name-calling.

    I was HOPING to start up a discussion of my idea as a means to refine it so that it A) wouldn't be illegal.. and B) would be a good educating tactic..

    I guess you missed that part b/c you were too busy implying that I'm an idiot whose only goal is to put on a prank to use your term for it..

    Other's have replied politely.. why can't you?

    adjust your dosage.. Sheesh..

    -Adam

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    Ed's open carry cards say it all and informs people of their God-given right to protect themselves and their loved ones. I suggest you contact him and modify the cards to reflect the laws in your state.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
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    Kriegsammler wrote:
    I still don't see how.. A card saying "hey.. you just got mugged.." when they obviously didn't, and you ( the card giver ) have already by this time walked away.. so.. no threat.. I dunno..
    -Adam
    I share a similar but less enthusiastic point of view with posters here and feel I can offer some critique that might help. The problem isn't you, myself, or others who think the same, it's everyone else. We may be able to interpret and understand what a particular card is trying to convey, but you are expecting average, knee-jerk reactionary citizens to calmly look at a card that provokes harsh thoughts and feelings to try to change a point of view. That's just not going to happen. You're asking people to step out of their comfort zone on your terms, not theirs, thereby creating an uncomfortable environment for them making them unwilling to bend on their beliefs no matter how "wrong" they may be.

    As pointed out earlier, all of this can be interpreted in such a manner as to convict you of criminal charges and revoke certain freedoms in some states. You might convince a couple of people to change their minds if they're susceptible to change through shock value, but I think the risks and headaches far outweigh the benefits.

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    and THAT Dreamer.. is how it's done..

    Thank you onlurker.. That made sense..

    -Adam

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    Hillmann +1

    onlurker +2

    Dreamer -1 (also a little surprised. The name-calling and belittling was out of line. He was asking -and open- to feedback. I hope you didn't scare off a new member.)

    Sorry about the bold type, can't get it to work right.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    All of this may be illegal in many cities because it could be construed as "handbills." distributing handbills is illegal some places.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  11. #11
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    double tap.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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    Kriegsammler wrote:
    and THAT Dreamer.. is how it's done..

    Thank you onlurker.. That made sense..

    -Adam
    +1 to you and onlurker.

    I would also be wary of how folks would react to your card.

    "What if I had been a robber? Being a criminal I wouldn't follow your "no gun" policy. More to the point, I'd be fairly certain that no one here was armed--except me."

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    I have made a copy of some business cards I have made up for free from VISTAPRINT

    What do you think of it? Professional looking and leads people to good information as to the legalities of open carry!

    Could be used for any state if one researches a website that has questions and answers for their own states gun laws. Just put your own states name on it and your own researched website with valid state gun law information on it.

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    I agree this type of card is best. Educate the uninformed not with games but with information.

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    DonM2 wrote:
    I agree this type of card is best. Educate the uninformed not with games but with information.
    +1 for you and for the card.

    Game-playing gives one a nice feeling of superiority over the uninformed. Rationality changes hearts and minds of the uninformed.

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    OCinColorado wrote:
    I have made a copy of some business cards I have made up for free from VISTAPRINT

    What do you think of it? Professional looking and leads people to good information as to the legalities of open carry!

    Could be used for any state if one researches a website that has questions and answers for their own states gun laws. Just put your own states name on it and your own researched website with valid state gun law information on it.
    I created this card because some anti-gun nut gave my OC'ing wife (who is new to this) a hard time. I told her that if anyone gives her a hard time to simply give them the card, tell them to have a nice day and walk away. Always being respectful of other people works best, and this way they are given real information as to the legal nature of open carry.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I would remind all of you folks accusing me of "name calling" to go back and read my post, and then review your English grammar texts...

    I called his IDEA stupid. I did not call the OP any names. The OP may be very intelligent, creative, and law-abiding-I don't know because I've never met him. All I can pass judgment on are his words, and I think I've done that fairly.

    He's obviously put some thought into this idea, even if he hasn't put much thought into the legal, perceptual, and wider-ranging ramifications as to how such an idea may reflect on OCers in general. Such "shock value" forms of activism CAN be effective--but they can also backfire, and it is evident from his post that he doesn't have much of a background in PR, marketing, psychology or the law...

    If calling a bad IDEA "stupid" is now the same as calling a PERSON stupid, then I must have missed the memo from the English Department.

    Good, smart people have stupid ideas all the time. It's part of the creative process. A confident, intelligent, creative person can take criticism of a bad idea without internalizing it as some sort of personal attack. If the OP can't take constructive (abeit, admittedly blunt) criticism, then I'd forward the suggestion that being an activist of something as controversial as OC might not be a good thing for him. An "anti" who doesn't appreciate his idea is going to be a LOT more critical than I was, and could, in many jurisdictions, have him arrested. I'm just trying to save him--and the OC movement in general--a potentially embarrassing and damaging PR faux pas...

    I still think his idea is bad. I still think it's inflammatory. I still think if he tried in NC (or just about any other Eastern state, like VA, WV, or PA, as most of them have similar laws) he'd be soon looking at summons from the courts.

    And we (OCers) would ALL be branded by the media as a bunch of pushy a$$hats with morbid, aggressive, and dangerous senses of humor. I think it's best that we avoid setting that sort of example, because the media would just LOVE to get their teeth into such a poorly-thought-out display...

    I'd suggest you get some state-specific OC cards, or some "no guns=no$" cards (like the ones that Ed or I have designed) and hand them out.

    The TRUTH is always the best weapon in the arsenal of an activist...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Anyone wishing to use my idea and make this card work for their own state, please feel free to do so.
    Those in Colorado may use a direct copy if you so wish to do so.

    I would sincerely hope everyone use something like this instead of some scare tactic!

    Again, I got them made FREE at vistaprint.com



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    I have ordered more, only this time I added a back side to it.

    Hope you all like it.

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    The two cards shown above in my comments are the front and back of the same card.

  21. #21
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    I like the layout of those cards. Nothing that overtly stands out, and they have a more professional appearance.

    In today's world, I've noticed that people respond a lot better to a neat, professional appearance vs. a more explosive statement (my experience only! Do not ask for proof, for you shall receive none, haha). They can also be used as an "ice breaker" to open the conversation up to more avenues concerning open carry as well (or onto other topics if you happen to be single...).

    I will be siding with Dreamer on the OP though, since we live in the same state. Granted, a card like that will leave a sharper memory, but can also cause more harm then good to the person handing them out.
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    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    This isn't an amazing idea. It doesn't matter what the cause, people really don't like you coming up to them and telling them what to believe.

    just my .02
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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    flagellum wrote:
    This isn't an amazing idea. It doesn't matter what the cause, people really don't like you coming up to them and telling them what to believe.

    just my .02
    I plan on handing this card out only to those who comment to me first as to my carrying. Not pushy at all!

  24. #24
    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    I see, sorry. I thought you were going to hand them out to any random passerby.
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
    -- Charles A. Beard
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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    I, too, would avoid the Bang- You're Dead cards. I do like the idea of giving out cards, though. Perhaps they could say "Last year, 1 in ??? people in this city were victims of violent crimes." And on the back something catchy like "Fight Crime, shoot back!" if that isn't taken already.

    You are on the right track, though. You need to present a relevant, easy to remember fact in a memorable way. Think like the Truth.com anti-cigarette people.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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