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Just got drawn on and disarmed by LEO

sudden valley gunner

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SaintJacque wrote:
eye95 wrote:
Can you link one of his offending posts? Because, frankly, I wonder if what you posted wasn't an interpretation of what he said. Those two statements are absolutes. They have no qualifiers. Folks don't generally post that way.
That could be, and I'd like to see the posts too. However, I have heard a lot of comments from people who are pro-LEO whose qualifiers are so unreasonable that for all practical purposes they are absolute.
That's what I was getting at not that it is wrong to be pro LEO. I'm not anti, but some encourage giving up rights or "cooperating" when it really is not adviseable. Why I said similar I wan't making an exact comparison to phrasing of the post.
 

eye95

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
SaintJacque wrote:
eye95 wrote:
Can you link one of his offending posts? Because, frankly, I wonder if what you posted wasn't an interpretation of what he said. Those two statements are absolutes. They have no qualifiers. Folks don't generally post that way.
That could be, and I'd like to see the posts too. However, I have heard a lot of comments from people who are pro-LEO whose qualifiers are so unreasonable that for all practical purposes they are absolute.
That's what I was getting at not that it is wrong to be pro LEO. I'm not anti, but some encourage giving up rights or "cooperating" when it really is not adviseable. Why I said similar I wan't making an exact comparison to phrasing of the post.
I am neither pro- nor anti-LEO. As with ordinary folks, most are great people, and a few are jerks. The LEO who unlawfully detained me is actually a nice guy--just wrong.
 

Deanimator

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eye95 wrote:
I am neither pro- nor anti-LEO. As with ordinary folks, most are great people, and a few are jerks. The LEO who unlawfully detained me is actually a nice guy--just wrong.
If I carry into a liquor serving establishment in Ohio while carrying and a cop catches me, he's not going care one iota whether I'm a "nice guy" or not. Nor is he going to care whether I allegedly knew what I did was illegal. I'm going to get arrested.

One standard for everybody, or no standard for anybody.
 

eye95

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Deanimator wrote:
eye95 wrote:
I am neither pro- nor anti-LEO. As with ordinary folks, most are great people, and a few are jerks. The LEO who unlawfully detained me is actually a nice guy--just wrong.
If I carry into a liquor serving establishment in Ohio while carrying and a cop catches me, he's not going care one iota whether I'm a "nice guy" or not. Nor is he going to care whether I allegedly knew what I did was illegal. I'm going to get arrested.

One standard for everybody, or no standard for anybody.
I am sorry. Did I imply that there should be a different standards for how LEOs treat people based on whether the citizen is a nice guy or not? I didn't mean to.

My point was that most LEOs are nice guys.
 

lil_freak_66

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eye95 wrote:
Deanimator wrote:
eye95 wrote:
I am neither pro- nor anti-LEO. As with ordinary folks, most are great people, and a few are jerks. The LEO who unlawfully detained me is actually a nice guy--just wrong.
If I carry into a liquor serving establishment in Ohio while carrying and a cop catches me, he's not going care one iota whether I'm a "nice guy" or not. Nor is he going to care whether I allegedly knew what I did was illegal. I'm going to get arrested.

One standard for everybody, or no standard for anybody.
I am sorry. Did I imply that there should be a different standards for how LEOs treat people based on whether the citizen is a nice guy or not? I didn't mean to.

My point was that most LEOs are nice guys.
+1

ive been helped many more times by LEO's than harassed by them,the majority are nice,and even a good portion of the ones OC'ers would consider bad,are merely un(der)educated/informed of the laws,and after (re)trained are perfectly fine.
 

Dreamer

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Having worked on the NIJ's "Asset Forfeiture Handbook" series back in the early 1990's I'm a bit of an "armchair expert" on asset forfeiture. Let me weigh in on this one...

Under Federal Asset Forfeiture law, certain assets may be seized by local LEO's during the investigation of a crime, EVEN IF NO ARREST IS MADE. They don't even have to CHARGE you with a crime to seize and hold your property if the proper paperwork is filled out immediately after the seizure.

Under FAFL, all that is required is that you are SUSPECTED of being involved in criminal activity. You do not have to be arrested or even charged with a crime. There is not even a requirement that a citation be issued. If you are a suspect, then under Federal guidelines for Asset Forfeiture, they can take ANY property that may have been used in the alledged commission of a crime. This would include vehicles, firearms, your home, bank accounts, just about anything they want and can make ANY kind of connection to the crime with.

They may keep that property as long as they want. It is YOUR responsibility as the property owner to prove that said property was not used to commit a crime, or was proceeds from a criminal endeavor. If they won't give you your property back when you request it, you may have to sue them to regain possession, and this process requires you to do the logically impossible feat of proving a negative--that the property was in no way involved in anything illegal...

Asset Forfeiture is a HUGE racket, and local LEO's often use it to supplement their budgets. It has become an "alternate revenue stream" in some jurisdictions, far outpacing traffic citations and even taxes.

If you are considering filing a complaint or even a lawsuit, I'd suggest getting your firearm back BEFORE you start in on the administrative complaints, or you might NEVER see that firearm again...

Good luck with this one.

And remember, IANAL, and my advise is worth exactly what you pay for it. But if you don't believe me, I can scan pages from the Handbooks and post them...
 

Haz.

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G-day.

"I just got a new apartment and the first day I was there I decided to use their workout room. Well aparently that night their flat screens got stolen and because I was the only one who used it that day they pointed at me. Anyways cops came to my door the other day and chose not to tell me or my friend all that, instead they persuaded my friend into coming into our place.heres how it started

"detective -"hi hows it going can we come in?"

my friend- "ok.... if you can tell me whats going on"

det. - "we're doing an investigation on some stolen property"
.

This is how I would have handled this situation.

The first question which should have been asked before entry was granted, if at all should have been;

"I'm going ok, how are you three?What property stolen from where and from whom?'

Detective; "A flat screen from theapartments workout room."

Next question. "Am I or arewe suspects and if we are, do you have warrents to conduct a search or for our arrest? If not, no, you cannot come in. I will happily answer any questions right here in the hall if I can be of any help."
 

marshaul

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Deanimator wrote:
McX wrote:
yep, another example of how being a nice guy, a good citizen, gets your rights trampled on, in your own home no less!
But that CAN'T be right!

Why just the other day, on another forum, I was told that cops are the "good guys" and that you should just CONSENT to whatever they ask, whether it's legal or not!  Expecting the police to know and obey the law is "anti-LEO"!  Exercising your legal rights is even MORE "anti-LEO"!
See, this is what I'm saying. This is what is demanded of one in order to not be "anti-LEO".

I just won't do it.
 

marshaul

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eye95 wrote:
Can you link one of his offending posts?  Because, frankly, I wonder if what you posted wasn't an interpretation of what he said.  Those two statements are absolutes.  They have no qualifiers.  Folks don't generally post that way.
Sometimes it's easier to cut the crap and get to the heart of what someone is really saying, when that person is making extensive use of weasel words , duplicity, equivocation, and/or intentional vagueness to pretend that he is not saying that precise thing.
 

Dutch5187

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As a police officer, reading these posts has given me insight on the way this situation can be interpreted. If you look at the situation from an LEO's view you can draw a different conclusion. Three policeman entered the house with consent. As far as I know, the occupants of the dwelling do not know the officers, and vice versa. They are investigating a crime. The police officers do not know if the occupants are good citizens, they do not know if they are criminals. Are the occupant(s) felons? Did the occupant(s) commit the crime?Are the occupant(s) wanted for any crimes? Are there illegal substances in the house?At this point, from the officer's standpoint, those questions are unknown. A male subject with a holstered pistol, who may or may not have committed the crime, may or may not have a warrant, may or may not have illegal substances/items in the house, the officers have no idea.Is the armed citizen going to suddenly draw his firearmbecause he is in facton probation, and does not want to go back to jail? I don't know, and neither do the police in the house. Not knowing the answers to any of these questions, should the police have either ignored the fact that the subject has a firearm, or tell the male subject to "please leave that weapon holstered until I run your name, and find out that you have 2 outstanding felony warrants." The bottom line is that as a police officer, I'm going home to my family at the end of my shift, and if the officers got into your feelings by making sure they were safe securing a firearm from an unknown male, then maybe move to Europe. I fully advocate OC by everyone who is able, because I believe someone with a visible weapon is far less likely to be a victim of a crime, however, an LEO doesn't know Joe Citizen from Joe Criminal, and going home to my family is my priority.When your child says "Daddy, is the bad guy going to shoot you at work" maybe then you'll understandwhy the officers secured the armed subject. However, if you feel like your fourth amendment rights were violated, then by all means consult an attorney. My post isn't about the actions of the police before or after the securing of the firearm, and I'm not saying they were right or wrong, i wasn't there. If you reply to my post, please keep it relevant to the securing of the firearm, not to the fact that you feel that the subject's civil rights were violated because a firearm was secured from an unknown male during the investigation of a crime, after they were granted consent to enter the premesis. Bottom lineis, deny enty to the police.
 

Deanimator

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lil_freak_66 wrote:
+1

ive been helped many more times by LEO's than harassed by them,the majority are nice,and even a good portion of the ones OC'ers would consider bad,are merely un(der)educated/informed of the laws,and after (re)trained are perfectly fine.
One more time:

If I get caught carrying into Chipotle, the cop is NOT going to give a crap that I'm a "nice guy", NOR is he going to give a crap that I allegedly am "un(der)educated/informed of the laws". He's not going to "(re)train" me. He's going to ARREST me.

1. The cop's "niceness" is completely irrelevant. He can be the biggest ass in the world as long as he knows and obeys the law.

2. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for me. Why is it an excuse for the ones ENFORCING it, ESPECIALLY when they deprive people of their liberty?

One standard for EVERYBODY.
 

Deanimator

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eye95 wrote:
My point was that most LEOs are nice guys.
When he's violating somebody's rights or breaking the law, his "niceness" is as irrelevant as his interest in monster trucks.

Hasn't pretty much EVERY guy who recently engaged in mass shootings of police been described in some fashion by his friends and family as "nice"? Does that mitigate their actions?
 

buster81

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Dutch5187 wrote:
As a police officer, reading these posts has given me insight on the way this situation can be interpreted. If you look at the situation from an LEO's view you can draw a different conclusion. Three policeman entered the house with consent. As far as I know, the occupants of the dwelling do not know the officers, and vice versa. They are investigating a crime. The police officers do not know if the occupants are good citizens, they do not know if they are criminals. Are the occupant(s) felons? Did the occupant(s) commit the crime?Are the occupant(s) wanted for any crimes? Are there illegal substances in the house?At this point, from the officer's standpoint, those questions are unknown. A male subject with a holstered pistol, who may or may not have committed the crime, may or may not have a warrant, may or may not have illegal substances/items in the house, the officers have no idea.Is the armed citizen going to suddenly draw his firearmbecause he is in facton probation, and does not want to go back to jail? I don't know, and neither do the police in the house. Not knowing the answers to any of these questions, should the police have either ignored the fact that the subject has a firearm, or tell the male subject to "please leave that weapon holstered until I run your name, and find out that you have 2 outstanding felony warrants." The bottom line is that as a police officer, I'm going home to my family at the end of my shift, and if the officers got into your feelings by making sure they were safe securing a firearm from an unknown male, then maybe move to Europe. I fully advocate OC by everyone who is able, because I believe someone with a visible weapon is far less likely to be a victim of a crime, however, an LEO doesn't know Joe Citizen from Joe Criminal, and going home to my family is my priority.When your child says "Daddy, is the bad guy going to shoot you at work" maybe then you'll understandwhy the officers secured the armed subject. However, if you feel like your fourth amendment rights were violated, then by all means consult an attorney. My post isn't about the actions of the police before or after the securing of the firearm, and I'm not saying they were right or wrong, i wasn't there. If you reply to my post, please keep it relevant to the securing of the firearm, not to the fact that you feel that the subject's civil rights were violated because a firearm was secured from an unknown male during the investigation of a crime, after they were granted consent to enter the premesis. Bottom lineis, deny enty to the police.

Holly giant paragraph batman.

The bold part is a good message.
 

Deanimator

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buster81 wrote:
Dutch5187 wrote:
Bottom lineis, deny enty to the police.

Holly giant paragraph batman.

The bold part is a good message.
And do NOT fall for pretexts.

Don't discuss it, don't allow them to justify it.

Withhold consent, PERIOD. If having been denied consent, they FORCE their way in, do not resist. Get as many witnesses as possible, and if lawful to do so, record.
 

fully_armed_biker

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Dutch5187 wrote:
As a police officer, reading these posts has given me insight on the way this situation can be interpreted. If you look at the situation from an LEO's view you can draw a different conclusion. Three policeman entered the house with consent. As far as I know, the occupants of the dwelling do not know the officers, and vice versa. They are investigating a crime. The police officers do not know if the occupants are good citizens, they do not know if they are criminals. Are the occupant(s) felons? Did the occupant(s) commit the crime?Are the occupant(s) wanted for any crimes? Are there illegal substances in the house?At this point, from the officer's standpoint, those questions are unknown. A male subject with a holstered pistol, who may or may not have committed the crime, may or may not have a warrant, may or may not have illegal substances/items in the house, the officers have no idea.Is the armed citizen going to suddenly draw his firearmbecause he is in facton probation, and does not want to go back to jail? I don't know, and neither do the police in the house. Not knowing the answers to any of these questions, should the police have either ignored the fact that the subject has a firearm, or tell the male subject to "please leave that weapon holstered until I run your name, and find out that you have 2 outstanding felony warrants." The bottom line is that as a police officer, I'm going home to my family at the end of my shift, and if the officers got into your feelings by making sure they were safe securing a firearm from an unknown male, then maybe move to Europe. I fully advocate OC by everyone who is able, because I believe someone with a visible weapon is far less likely to be a victim of a crime, however, an LEO doesn't know Joe Citizen from Joe Criminal, and going home to my family is my priority.When your child says "Daddy, is the bad guy going to shoot you at work" maybe then you'll understandwhy the officers secured the armed subject. However, if you feel like your fourth amendment rights were violated, then by all means consult an attorney. My post isn't about the actions of the police before or after the securing of the firearm, and I'm not saying they were right or wrong, i wasn't there. If you reply to my post, please keep it relevant to the securing of the firearm, not to the fact that you feel that the subject's civil rights were violated because a firearm was secured from an unknown male during the investigation of a crime, after they were granted consent to enter the premesis. Bottom lineis, deny enty to the police.
You say that as if YOU (LEO's in general) are the only ones that have the right to go home to their family...:banghead: It doesn't matter whose rights get trampled...it doesn't matter whether their actions are legal or not...it's their right to go home to their family at the end of their shift...everybody else's rights be damned!
 

CarryOpen

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Pulling a weapon on someone prepared to defend themselves my not be the best way to get home at the end of your shift. Especially when you are an unknown intruder in said person's home.
 

Cracker

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Dutch5187 wrote:
As a police officer, reading these posts has given me insight on the way this situation can be interpreted. If you look at the situation from an LEO's view you can draw a different conclusion. Three policeman entered the house with consent. As far as I know, the occupants of the dwelling do not know the officers, and vice versa. They are investigating a crime. The police officers do not know if the occupants are good citizens, they do not know if they are criminals. Are the occupant(s) felons? Did the occupant(s) commit the crime?Are the occupant(s) wanted for any crimes? Are there illegal substances in the house?At this point, from the officer's standpoint, those questions are unknown. A male subject with a holstered pistol, who may or may not have committed the crime, may or may not have a warrant, may or may not have illegal substances/items in the house, the officers have no idea.Is the armed citizen going to suddenly draw his firearmbecause he is in facton probation, and does not want to go back to jail? I don't know, and neither do the police in the house. Not knowing the answers to any of these questions, should the police have either ignored the fact that the subject has a firearm, or tell the male subject to "please leave that weapon holstered until I run your name, and find out that you have 2 outstanding felony warrants." The bottom line is that as a police officer, I'm going home to my family at the end of my shift, and if the officers got into your feelings by making sure they were safe securing a firearm from an unknown male, then maybe move to Europe. I fully advocate OC by everyone who is able, because I believe someone with a visible weapon is far less likely to be a victim of a crime, however, an LEO doesn't know Joe Citizen from Joe Criminal, and going home to my family is my priority.When your child says "Daddy, is the bad guy going to shoot you at work" maybe then you'll understandwhy the officers secured the armed subject. However, if you feel like your fourth amendment rights were violated, then by all means consult an attorney. My post isn't about the actions of the police before or after the securing of the firearm, and I'm not saying they were right or wrong, i wasn't there. If you reply to my post, please keep it relevant to the securing of the firearm, not to the fact that you feel that the subject's civil rights were violated because a firearm was secured from an unknown male during the investigation of a crime, after they were granted consent to enter the premesis. Bottom lineis, deny enty to the police.


Unfortunately, your questions about who is here and who isn't does not trump our rights, ESPECIALLY when there is no warrant and you were ALLOWED access to the home.Sorry you're worried about who, what , where and how.... Don't come in if it's that big of a problem, pretty simple. Also, this whole "I'm going home at the end of my shift" is bull@#$%, we have homes and families as well..

I understand your intentions in this post were good and I appreciate that but, you still sound like you would have done the same thing these LEO's did. Police Officers aren't the only ones who walk this earth and it's becoming quite disturbing seeing the attitudes most LEO's have.
 

darthmord

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Dutch5187 wrote:
As a police officer, reading these posts has given me insight on the way this situation can be interpreted. If you look at the situation from an LEO's view you can draw a different conclusion. Three policeman entered the house with consent. As far as I know, the occupants of the dwelling do not know the officers, and vice versa. They are investigating a crime. The police officers do not know if the occupants are good citizens, they do not know if they are criminals. Are the occupant(s) felons? Did the occupant(s) commit the crime?Are the occupant(s) wanted for any crimes? Are there illegal substances in the house?At this point, from the officer's standpoint, those questions are unknown. A male subject with a holstered pistol, who may or may not have committed the crime, may or may not have a warrant, may or may not have illegal substances/items in the house, the officers have no idea.Is the armed citizen going to suddenly draw his firearmbecause he is in facton probation, and does not want to go back to jail? I don't know, and neither do the police in the house. Not knowing the answers to any of these questions, should the police have either ignored the fact that the subject has a firearm, or tell the male subject to "please leave that weapon holstered until I run your name, and find out that you have 2 outstanding felony warrants." The bottom line is that as a police officer, I'm going home to my family at the end of my shift, and if the officers got into your feelings by making sure they were safe securing a firearm from an unknown male, then maybe move to Europe. I fully advocate OC by everyone who is able, because I believe someone with a visible weapon is far less likely to be a victim of a crime, however, an LEO doesn't know Joe Citizen from Joe Criminal, and going home to my family is my priority.When your child says "Daddy, is the bad guy going to shoot you at work" maybe then you'll understandwhy the officers secured the armed subject. However, if you feel like your fourth amendment rights were violated, then by all means consult an attorney. My post isn't about the actions of the police before or after the securing of the firearm, and I'm not saying they were right or wrong, i wasn't there. If you reply to my post, please keep it relevant to the securing of the firearm, not to the fact that you feel that the subject's civil rights were violated because a firearm was secured from an unknown male during the investigation of a crime, after they were granted consent to enter the premesis. Bottom lineis, deny enty to the police.

It is not my intention to be a jerk but if going home at the end of the day is truly that important to you, then perhaps you should find employment in a profession where your daily responsibilities don't endanger your life to such a degree. I don't see a need to endanger my life so I don't work in a profession where I would stand a significant chance of physical injury due to criminal elements.

The bolded section pisses me off. You are claiming (in not so many words) that you are disarming people "For the children". Guess what... I carry forthe same reason.

At the endof the day, I as Joe Citizen don't really give a damn about your well-being. I'm selfish. I care about my well-being. I care about my wife's and my children's. I don't care about yours... and will not, especiallyif you draw on me.

So in the end, what makes *your* well-being more importantthan mine?

It is kind of funny. My kids have asked me whyI don't work as a police officer. I told them I wanted to come home at the end of the day and spend time with them; that I didn't want to have to deal with criminals day in and day out. I was told by my kids "We're glad you have the job you do. You get to come home to us every night." My kids don't have to worry about my job getting me shot/killed.
 
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