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Thread: Police Mentality for Philly - Supervisor of the Gun Permit Unit

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    The officer who called me back was the first person I've spoke with in Philly who knows the law. His views in regards to open carry are ill, as his views how police officers should act. His first remark were while open carry is lawful in PA, a licensed is required to open carry in Philly.

    I was told the typical views as to why I should conceal carry and not open carry. He did go over the UFA stating where open carry is lawful. He dis start the conversation with accusations how I'm a person who favors lawsuits, causing a ruckus, and/or is trying to be in-your-face about firearms. I was told about Mrs. Hain and how her husband shot her after the whole ruckus caused. He mentioned a couple other incidents in PA. After the ranting on his part, the conversation turned rather logical.

    The whole conversation was in totally, odd yet thought provoking. He is perhaps the most sound officer(after the accusative ranting) I've ever spoke with in the state of Pennsylvania, I was rather shocked. I told him it's unfortunate he can't be copied and placed in other positions.

    He recommended I visit paopencarry.org, which was rather odd hearing the domain name being spoken. I don't consider paopencarry to be the first domain to appear in the mind of another.

    Below were some summarized thoughts from the officer, you may agree or disagree. I recognized the mindset of the officer as military-like. I've a feeling he was in the military after making the comment, "I'd just like to finish my tour." I was rather shocked at the comment. My own thoughts which I did not ask, " Do Philly police officers really have the mindset like soldiers in the sandbox?"

    Please don't quote the summaries below. While I tried to provide the totality of the conversation, I may have summarized in a way which gives a biased opinion.
    --------------------

    - If you're carrying in a City of First Class like Philadelphia, where officers are targets each day, expect to be harassed. If you choose to open carry, don't be surprised if you're on the ground, disarmed and or tazed for open carrying.

    - You have to remember officers are killed here. There were 8 officer deaths in the past 2 years here in Philly. The moment you put on the badge is the moment you become a target.

    - There's a big difference between town cops and metro cops regarding the mindset. I've a 2 year old at home, which I'd like to come back to at the end of the day. If I've a choice between 3 days off due to an complaint over an unlawful action on my part, then that's 3 days home with my daughter. I'll take the investigatory complaint over being put in a coffin.

    -You have to understand officers are killed here. One officer killed while signing a log book, it's not a place which an officer can relax when they see someone open carrying a holstered handgun.

    - I recommend you spend $25 on a permit to conceal the firearm, to evade any hassle or becoming a target.

    - There's a big difference between small town cops and metro cops. Small town cops may be fine and even be friendly about open carry.

    - You may be the nicest guy in the world, but I don't know you from a can of paint.

    *rather long explanation here, moral is following * If you put on the badge, you have to change your mentally if you're used to being in small towns. Here in Philly you have people who would shoot at cops, a person must be prepared for the worst. Of course there are rules, police can't just beat you in the head, shoot you, or cause bodily harm.

    - Why would you want to even open carry in a City of First Class, such an act sound rather foolish. You stated the possibility of relocating to PA in Pittsburgh or Philly, are you expecting not to be harassed? Sir, you're asking for trouble.

    - You've gone to training, you know how quick a person can get shots off from the retention holster. Fire and Holster, Holster and fire, you've had training, you should know better.

    - some officers are solo, they don't have an officer to back them up. They must act independently where their safety is priority. Some cars have two officers and at othertimes just one.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We talked about boundaries in law enforcement between Philly and the surrounding areas, radio communication, and he finished up with, "You should spend the $25 and get a permit to conceal carry."


    My own thoughts after the conversation - these are rather random
    ------------------------------------------------
    hypothetically, if someone wanted to kill me in a large city, they can use a scope to shoot me at 1100 yards. I'd think being in a large city, there is a possibility of less wind due to buildings, making such a shot possible. Someone could shoot me from a rooftop as well, so why worry about someone carrying a handgun in a nice fashion?

    Bringing more risk to myself by open carrying in philly, unsure.

    Bringing more risk to myself by open carrying in Pittsburgh? from what, drunks on the south side? gang bangers in oakland? *thinks of person who yelled a vulgarity behind his back when open carrying in Pittsburgh*

    Certain times I should consider concealing even while actively open carrying, possible.

    In a way, the logic is sound. All an officer has to do is present himself to a panel, have three days off, and is clear. Why risk oneself over the rights/priv(in philly) of open carry of another person?

    If Philly is truly this bad, then perhaps an increase in police presence should be in order.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    The officer who called me back was the first person I've spoke with in Philly who knows the law. His views in regards to open carry are ill, as his views how police officers should act. His first remark were while open carry is lawful in PA, a licensed is required to open carry in Philly.

    --------------------------

    - I recommend you spend $25 on a permit to conceal the firearm, to evade any hassle or becoming a target.

    ?????????
    States donít have rights. People do.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    You need an LTCF or reciprocal license to carry a firearm in a City of First Class.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    So did this officer give you solid stats on how many gangbangers and other violent criminals in Philly wear a handgun openly in a holster?

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    XD40,

    No, I was more interested on his thoughts since he was open to conversation than being abrasive in conversation.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Philly PD can suck a dick. they get shot because they act like gangbanger thugs, not because they have more cop killers than other big cities. maybe if their cops started acting like human beings, people would stop wanting to kill them.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    they get shot because they act like gangbanger thugs.
    Coming from a guy who tells forest officers... "man, turn yo' ass around and get back to your woods. i heard Bambi is selling crack to some Keebler elves and @#$%."...
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    they get shot because they act like gangbanger thugs.
    Coming from a guy who tells forest officers... "man, turn yo' ass around and get back to your woods. i heard Bambi is selling crack to the keebler elves."...
    well, then i guess i'd know what a gangbanger would sound like, right? not everyone who carries a gun talks like you do, so get over yourself. nice to take something i said out of context, to try and twist it around to suit your own agenda. are you sure you aren't a mod on Poofa?

    of course, i shouldn't be surprised that someone who likes to play dress up would have an issue with me calling out guys in uniform, or furry little forest creatures. hop along, furball, and play roadkill for awhile.
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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Jahwarrior72,

    You need to understand the psychology of human interactions. When confronted face to face with another, general behavior is mirrored. Not only on the physical level but the mental level as well. When you act like a complete ****** to another person, expect the same in return. The proper reaction to the forest officer situation would've been to smile and explain open carry.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Jahwarrior72,

    You need to understand the psychology of human interactions. When confronted face to face with another, general behavior is mirrored. Not only on the physical level but the mental level as well. When you act like a complete ****** to another person, expect the same in return. The proper reaction to the forest officer situation would've been to smile and explain open carry.
    i understand the psychology quite well, thank you. kind of like, if i dressed up like anthropomorphized animal, i should expect people to make fun of me and call me a freak.

    i'm rather nice and personable, when approached in an appropriate manner. if you'd bothered to read the post you referred to, you'd know that the bunny cop approached me intent on being a dick.

    again, you took what i said out of context to support your claim of ************* on my part, which is false. i first attempted to ignore him, then i attempted to correct him, then i dared him to arrest me for NOT breaking any law. when he pressed the issue, then, and only then, did i verbally act like an *******.

    when approached with respect, i give respect. when you give me ****, i will return it tenfold. the officer you spoke to wasn't being nice, he was a *********, and was simply patronizing you. you, having very little understanding of psychology, just failed to hear it.

    did i mention the Philly PD can suck a dick? no? well, i guess i just did. you can tell your buddy at the precinct i said that, or just forward him the link to this thread.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    jahwarrior,

    Take the higher road and don't act like a ****** in return. If you act calm, nice and professional the forest officer could've been turned in to a well informed supporter of open carry.

    You don't act like a ****** in return, it's just wrong.

    On the other hand, if you don't give some type of sincere reaction(smile, anger, or otherwise) people will think you're psychotic, which I've unintentionally done on the physical level.

    i understand the psychology quite well, thank you. kind of like, if i dressed up like anthropomorphized animal, i should expect people to make fun of me and call me a freak.
    You do realize I plan on working charity events and possibly visiting long term care at hospitals, right? My whole reasoning behind fursuiting is for the well being of others, to cheer people up.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    but, back to the problems with the Philly PD. if Philly cops are so concerned with getting shot, they should think about:

    A - getting more training for situational awareness, so they get ambushed less often.
    B - cracking down on repeat violent offenders, instead turning them loose on the streets.
    C - doing something about the school system in Philly, which are among the lowest scoring in PA, and nationwide.
    D - doing something about unemployment, which only serves to increase the rate of crime in the city.
    E - not harassing law abiding citizens, who are less likely to shoot at police who don't continually harass them.

    there's a reason the Philly PD are constantly being shot at, and it's not because they're unlucky, or that Philly has a higher rate of cop killers than other cities. in plain English, it's their own damn fault. when you have a number of cops who publicly state they'd "put two in the melon" of anyone they saw open carrying, or say it's unfortunate that "people have the right to have guns," it's pretty clear where the problem is.

    so, @#$% you, Philly PD. stop acting like gangbangers with badges, and you might see a drop in the number of dead cops you have.
    Last edited by jahwarrior72; 02-28-2011 at 12:52 PM.
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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    jahwarrior,

    Take the higher road and don't act like a ****** in return. If you act calm, nice and professional the forest officer could've been turned in to a well informed supporter of open carry.

    You don't act like a ****** in return, it's just wrong.

    On the other hand, if you don't give some type of sincere reaction(smile, anger, or otherwise) people will think you're psychotic, which I've unintentionally done on the physical level.

    i understand the psychology quite well, thank you. kind of like, if i dressed up like anthropomorphized animal, i should expect people to make fun of me and call me a freak.
    You do realize I plan on working charity events and possibly visiting long term care at hospitals, right? My whole reasoning behind fursuiting is for the well being of others, to cheer people up.
    riiiiiiight. because i know that if i were undergoing chemo and radiation therapy, the thing that'd cheer me right up is some weirdo in a kangaroo outfit.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    jahwarrior72,

    You have no clue.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    ......and if I were a can of paint?

    ....(mumbles to self)........damned paint bigots.

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    jahwarrior72,

    You have no clue.
    right, that's me, clueless Jah, who thought it was a good idea to dress up like a LEO while open carrying...no, wait, that was you.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    And bickering and name-calling between one another serves what purpose?

    The problem being discussed is the Philadelphia Police Department's mentality.

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Statkowski wrote:
    And bickering and name-calling between one another serves what purpose?

    The problem being discussed is the Philadelphia Police Department's mentality.
    it serves no purpose at all. but, if i'm called out, i generally answer. i gave an opinion on the Philly PD's thuggery, and got **** for it. so, i gave **** back. simple enough.
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    it serves no purpose at all. but, if i'm called out, i generally answer. i gave an opinion on the Philly PD's thuggery, and got @#$% for it. so, i gave @#$% back. simple enough.
    The first sentence says it all. Sometimes it is better to shrug off a comment than to respond in kind. Everything just goes downhill when that happens. Did the insult, perceived or actual, change who you really are? If not, then it does not matter.

    The two of you have accomplished much, are accomplishing much, and will continue to accomplish much in the furtherance of our right to bear arms. You have earned my respect in that function, but your collective bickering negatively impacts such respect.

    Be nice. Be nice until it's time not to be nice, but not before.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    The bottom line is that the Philadelphia Police Department has a choice:

    • Obey Pennsylvania law
    • Don't obey Pennsylvania law

    The second choice has consequences, potentially for an officer's family when he has to pay a civil judgment instead of his mortgage.

    Obeying the law isn't optional for anybody else in Pennsylvania. It's not optional for Philly cops either. Maybe it'll take a few ruined careers and lives to prove it to them.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Deanimator,

    Complaints to Internal Affairs are generally denied with a letter stating some text like, "You can always try in civil court."
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Deanimator,

    Complaints to Internal Affairs are generally denied with a letter stating some text like, "You can always try in civil court."
    I'm from Chicago. I don't have ANY confidence in internal police "discipline". If you want to rein the police in, you have to start costing people money and publicly embarrassing the higher ups.

    Do an open carry march, extensively videoed. You'll either rub their noses in it, or you'll create a legal and public relations nightmare for them.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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