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Thread: Judge orders release of 9 Hutaree militia members, FreeP.com - FreePress.com

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I'm surprised it took them this long to release Sickles, since there is a high probability, based on his own interaction with the media in the last 12 months, that he is a Fed...

    Heck, the way these things historically play out, it may eventually come out that they ALL are...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Five charges and they can't hold them.....Fed's have problems. They even admit in court that militia's are legal...or at least some of them.

    http://freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C415696453.PDF

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Shawn,

    The Federal government doesn't have a problem with militias. Militias in themselves sometimes lead to creating prospective business like several contractor companies. The problem occurs when a militia makes a start to engage in domestic terrorism.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    U.S. District Judge Victoria A. Roberts'order

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/30732732/Hutaree-Brief

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Judge Robert's ruling isn't going to sit well with Cass Sunstein and his free-speech-hating cabal. Under his "brave new world order" verbal dissent should be treated the same as actual terrorism...

    Hurray for Judge Roberts. It's good to see that there is still at least ONE Judge on the bench in this country that still believes in the Bill of Rights. This is a HUGE victory for the 1A, folks...

    The only bad thing about this ruling is that this brave Judge may find herself on the same list as Sandy Hume, Eric Fox, Danny Casolaro, Suzanne Coleman, Vince Foster, Barry Seal, General James Rose, Charles Dana Rice, Jake Horton and Terry Yeakey. We all know what happens when people cross these administrations. History has proved that such dissentful activities can be VERY hazardous to your health.

    We should all say a prayer for Judge Roberts. She's very brave to do this, and needs all the moral support the people of this nation can give her.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    I just read the recently posted decision. Nothing in that decision is a protection of First Amendment rights. Instead that ruling finds that the group was not merely advocating, but was involved in speech-related conduct, including agreeing to make war on the US.

    The net upshot of the ruling was that the government need not prove any imminent danger to prosecute the Hutari.

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Not so fast.

    Court blocks release of jailed militia members

    DETROIT – A federal appeals court on Thursday intervened to block the release of nine members of a Michigan militia accused of plotting to overthrow the government, dealing a setback to the defendants as they gathered in a courtroom hoping to rejoin their families.

    A three-judge panel of the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati issued a temporary stay about 12 hours after a federal judge in Detroit said she would no longer freeze her Monday decision releasing the nine with electronic monitors and other restrictions.

    With some already in street clothes, the militia members were transported to court to be processed for release Thursday. But they were returned to jail after a magistrate judge announced the appeals court decision.

    The court did not indicate how long the stay would last, and defense lawyers were given until 5 p.m. to respond.

    "They're bad losers," attorney Mark Satawa told reporters, referring to the government. "I fully expect that the 6th Circuit will resolve this quickly."

    The U.S. attorney's office is appealing U.S. District Judge Victoria Roberts's order from earlier this week releasing the nine until trial. The government says the group, called Hutaree, would present a danger to the public if set free.

    Defense attorney Christopher Seikaly said the restrictions Roberts set, including electronic monitors and curfews, would be similar to house arrest and ensure the public's safety. The defendants would be allowed to go to work, see a doctor and visit their lawyers, but not much more.

    "They can't hang out at the corner pool hall," Seikaly said.

    The militia members are charged with conspiracy to commit sedition, or rebellion, against the government and the attempted use of weapons of mass destruction. They have been in custody without bond since late March.

    "We don't think the conditions are satisfactory," U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade told The Associated Press. "We think the defendants pose a danger to the public and to law enforcement in particular. It's my duty to protect the safety of the public."

    Much of the government's evidence made public so far shows militia members talking about killing police officers and attacking officers who turn up for the funeral. No specific plot with specific targets has been disclosed. The judge did acknowledge the group had "stockpiles" of legal weapons and ammunition.

    Defense attorneys say the conversations may contain repulsive speech and violent scenarios. But the talk is also peppered with laughter, "childish sounds and noises" and "detail-barren" schemes, attorneys Richard Helfrick and Todd Shanker wrote this week.

    The judge held detention hearings last week. She found secret recordings by an undercover agent contained "offensive and hate-filled speech" but nothing that signaled a conspiracy to levy war against the government.

    Many people were at the courthouse Thursday waiting for relatives to be released.

    "One hundred miles for nothing," said Tina Stone's father, Tim Kelley, 64, of North Adams, Mich., referring to his drive from Hillsdale County.

    Stone, 44, the wife of militia leader David Stone, 44, of Clayton, Mich., has been ordered to stay with her father when she is released.

    "It's frustrating, to be sure. She thought she was going home," her attorney, Michael Rataj, said of the delay.



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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Wow,

    The government appeal of the pre trial release should really be read by all of those that own firearms.

    Basically the Gov't appeal did not say: Defendant A did X. X is a serious danger to society so Defendant A should not get bail.

    The Federal government said: These defendants are members of an organizatio , that organization is bad becuse it collected guns, therefore they should not be entitled to bail.

    Like all federal prosecutions, federal prosecutors think nothing of trying to twist our federal law and the constitution in order to bring harm to defendents that they must face in court.

    If the gov't case is half as weak as their appeal, then maybe the Hutaree will walk.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    The appeal made no mention of the plot to kill LEOs?!?

    I haven't read the appeal, and I would be legitimately surprised if it did not. It is this very plot that makes them dangerous and is the number one reason they need to stay locked up.

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    eye95 wrote:
    The appeal made no mention of the plot to kill LEOs?!?

    I haven't read the appeal, and I would be legitimately surprised if it did not. It is this very plot that makes them dangerous and is the number one reason they need to stay locked up.
    I would not be surprised if the so called "Plot to kill LEOs" was all the brain child of the FBI informant designed so that if the Militia members didn't disagree with it, they were to believed to have implicitly agreed with it... our government is full of snakes, cheats, liars and scum and not one of them can be trusted.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    That didn't answer the question.

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    The beginning of "thought crime" prosecutions is the end of the First Amendment.

    Chip chip chip... There goes the Bill of Rights, piece by piece...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Plots to kill LEOs are behavior, not thought. Such plots are rightly and necessarily illegal.

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    eye95 wrote:
    Plots to kill LEOs are behavior, not thought. Such plots are rightly and necessarily illegal.
    What if they are concocted by the LEOs? What if they are future plots to be enacted only AFTER the complete collapse of society? What if they are plots for a screenplay? Sorry, but freedom of speech is not up for negotiation... if this nation goes down the road of arresting people for their speech... we're in SERIOUS trouble and I see only tyranny in our future.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Plots to kill LEOs are behavior, not thought. Such plots are rightly and necessarily illegal.
    What if they are concocted by the LEOs? What if they are future plots to be enacted only AFTER the complete collapse of society? What if they are plots for a screenplay? Sorry, but freedom of speech is not up for negotiation... if this nation goes down the road of arresting people for their speech... we're in SERIOUS trouble and I see only tyranny in our future.
    That is why we have courts and the requirement for proof. Plots are not thought. They are actions.

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    Regular Member Washintonian_For_Liberty's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Plots to kill LEOs are behavior, not thought. Such plots are rightly and necessarily illegal.
    What if they are concocted by the LEOs? What if they are future plots to be enacted only AFTER the complete collapse of society? What if they are plots for a screenplay? Sorry, but freedom of speech is not up for negotiation... if this nation goes down the road of arresting people for their speech... we're in SERIOUS trouble and I see only tyranny in our future.
    That is why we have courts and the requirement for proof. Plots are not thought. They are actions.
    A lot of good courts do when they are in the pocket of special interests who's only desire is to disarm the public with no resistance. Plots are not actions... actions are actions... and in this country, we are supposed to be innocent until proved guilty to a jury of our peers... and without action... there should be NO DAMN reason to imprison anyone... the Federal Government was premature on this one and they will lose... just like they lost with the Charles Dyer (a.k.a. July4Patriot) case.

    When you violate the rights of citizens like is very clearly happening in this case in Michigan, you quickly lose support from your everyday average Joes... and once that happens... look out... because I can just hear the impeachment calls against all prosecutors and judges who tried to circumvent the law and keep these people in jail.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Plots to kill LEOs are behavior, not thought. Such plots are rightly and necessarily illegal.
    What if they are concocted by the LEOs? What if they are future plots to be enacted only AFTER the complete collapse of society? What if they are plots for a screenplay? Sorry, but freedom of speech is not up for negotiation... if this nation goes down the road of arresting people for their speech... we're in SERIOUS trouble and I see only tyranny in our future.
    That is why we have courts and the requirement for proof. Plots are not thought. They are actions.
    A lot of good courts do when they are in the pocket of special interests who's only desire is to disarm the public with no resistance. Plots are not actions... actions are actions... and in this country, we are supposed to be innocent until proved guilty to a jury of our peers... and without action... there should be NO DAMN reason to imprison anyone... the Federal Government was premature on this one and they will lose... just like they lost with the Charles Dyer (a.k.a. July4Patriot) case.

    When you violate the rights of citizens like is very clearly happening in this case in Michigan, you quickly lose support from your everyday average Joes... and once that happens... look out... because I can just hear the impeachment calls against all prosecutors and judges who tried to circumvent the law and keep these people in jail.
    I'm sorry, but you seem to carry your belief that the system is broken way too far.

    I've been to the Hutari web site--right after the arrests, before anything could be scrubbed. These guys are WACKOS. I don't doubt for a nanosecond that, as reported, these guys were plotting to kill cops. I am glad they are off the streets. I hope they are locked up forever.

    Not for what they were thinking, but for what they were plotting to do.

    Anyway, I have made my point. Feel free to keep at it. I won't be joining in.

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    A plot to kill LEO's, could very easily be concocted by agovernment informant, without ANY backing or planing by the militia members. Here is how I know.

    A few years ago there was a white supremecist org. called The World Church of the Creator. The leader of that group is a guy named Matt Hale. He is currently serving a 35 year prison sentence for plotting to murder a supreme court judge.

    Matt Hale's "body guard" an undercover informant that had infilltrated the group, calls up Matt Hale on the phone one day, and says that the supreme court judge that had ruled against his org. about the rights to use the name "The World Church of The Creator" needed to be assassinated. Matt Hale replied "I want nothing to do with this", and hangs up the phone.

    I believe the next day he was arrested for plotting to kill the judge, because he did not explicitly say "NO DON'T DO THAT" or something like that. Point is, he was charged and convicted not because he endorsed or plotted, but because he did not say to his follower's, "don't do that orI will call the police".

    He was convicted not for plotting, or endorsing the actions, but for not going out of his way apparently to say, "don't do that".

    It would bevery easy to see these militia guys sitting around a fire one night drinking a few beers, and some agent, just drop a few crazy ideas into the conversation, and another member, expanding on the possibility, but not endorsing or plotting, and the agent who gets paid to help get people busted recording the conversation, and ALL of it being taken out of context, and used against the militia members. It does happen, and actions speak far louder than words.

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Pagan wrote:
    A plot to kill LEO's, could very easily be concocted by agovernment informant, without ANY backing or planing by the militia members. Here is how I know.

    A few years ago there was a white supremecist org. called The World Church of the Creator. The leader of that group is a guy named Matt Hale. He is currently serving a 35 year prison sentence for plotting to murder a supreme court judge.

    Matt Hale's "body guard" an undercover informant that had infilltrated the group, calls up Matt Hale on the phone one day, and says that the supreme court judge that had ruled against his org. about the rights to use the name "The World Church of The Creator" needed to be assassinated. Matt Hale replied "I want nothing to do with this", and hangs up the phone.

    I believe the next day he was arrested for plotting to kill the judge, because he did not explicitly say "NO DON'T DO THAT" or something like that. Point is, he was charged and convicted not because he endorsed or plotted, but because he did not say to his follower's, "don't do that orI will call the police".

    He was convicted not for plotting, or endorsing the actions, but for not going out of his way apparently to say, "don't do that".

    It would bevery easy to see these militia guys sitting around a fire one night drinking a few beers, and some agent, just drop a few crazy ideas into the conversation, and another member, expanding on the possibility, but not endorsing or plotting, and the agent who gets paid to help get people busted recording the conversation, and ALL of it being taken out of context, and used against the militia members. It does happen, and actions speak far louder than words.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/01/na...Se5cnCOoigiOow

    It would be nice to hear the tape. The news portrays this a little differently.

    Prosecutors in the conspiracy case say Mr. Hale was taped in a conversation with an undercover F.B.I. agent in which Mr. Hale asked about Judge Lefkow's address and was told: "I'm working on it. When we get it, we can exterminate the rat."

    "Good," Mr. Hale is quoted as saying on the tape. "Whatever you want to do, basically."

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    If that is true then, perhaps my point is off, I was only slightly interested in the case, when it was going on, I wonder if I could get the trial transcripts or something like that.

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    I think this is just the governments way to scare people into not forming militias.



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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Shawn wrote:
    Five charges and they can't hold them.....Fed's have problems. They even admit in court that militia's are legal...or at least some of them.

    http://freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C415696453.PDF
    Charges don't equate to evidence.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    buster81 wrote:
    Not so fast.

    Court blocks release of jailed militia members

    DETROIT – A federal appeals court on Thursday intervened to block the release of nine members of a Michigan militia accused of plotting to overthrow the government
    Doesn't part of the statute involving conspiracy include the ability to actually carry it out?

    If I conspire to become Puff the Magic Dragon.... It's not conspiracy because I can't actually do that. Nor can a handful of guys overthrow the government that has overthrown it's own law.....

    So, wouldn't they be 'plotting' to restore government? In the eyes of what we have in place of legitimate government, I guess that would be pretty bad. Wouldn't want a Legitimate Constitutional Government to 'overthrow' the tyrants and filthy bastards we have instead....
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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