Perfect example of where a firearm would have come in to use

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CRCowboy wrote:

Open carry - CC not withstanding, 6 Men (?) stood by and did NOTHING, It's a pitiful statement of the world today. Unfortunately, this type of thing is somewhat common and on the lower scale of violence watched by a crowd.

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Seinfeld made a statement about this very thing as the centerpiece of the last show in his TV series.

At the very least, pulling out a cell phone and calling 911 would have been a help. Perhaps someone outside the camera view did so, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn they did not.

Most people in situations of conflict do not act. Instead, they tend to either freeze, or if one of the herd starts running away, they'll flee. It's not just us humans, though, as the same behavior is seen amoung gorillas.

But this is why most people are not suited to become lifeguards, law enforcement officers, or members of the military. At best, I'd say the ratio of those who would act to stop it vs those who would not is one in twenty. For example, take a look at the unlawful shooting which occurred in the subway last year. Most people carry cell phones with cameras and video cameras, and the subway was packed with people, yet only three videos surfaced. Only three people had the presence of mind to actually use a tool they knew how to use to record the event and turn it in as evidence. Some others may have taken video of the scene, but did they turn it in as evidence?

Most of us who open carry are probably already in the one in twenty category.

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thnycav wrote:

Aaron1124 wrote:

slowfiveoh wrote:

Three things about this situation, that I am sure we can all agree on:

#1. This is the sad, demoralizing proof of society as a generalized whole, today.

#2. With open carry as a norm, this would all but disappear.

#3. Firearm training or not, it is good to get some hand-to-hand training as well.

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I think we can all agree on these three points.

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I do agree with 1 and 3 but as far as number2 it would not have changed the situation. The guy was a crazy and he did not have any reguard for anyone. I do not think anything short of putting the barrel of a shotgun in his face would make him see reason.

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I agree with #1 but am not sure that it is total proof.

#3. Is good and well but I have seen too many people that could whup almost anyone's butt that never had the first bit of training and were the proverbial 135 lbs. soaking wet. In fact I have seen a few of them in action. For most of them it was total attitude rather than any training or skill. I had a couple of friends growing up that I had rather had with me than a gun on my side. You never heard them sit around and whine that if only I had been there with my 1911 it would have been a different story. More than likely they would have taken that 1911 from you and made you eat it literally. I was never quite as "into it" as they were but I learned from them enough that when it breaks out you either get out or get involved, you don't stand there trying to decide what to do.

As for #2 that is whistling in the dark. OC might slow some of this stuff down but to even say that it would cut it out is like the Brady Bunch saying that banning guns will eliminate murders. It is very easy to use a gun as a crutch and this incident saying that if only someone had been there with a gun is nothing but a cop put. Someone could/should have done something other than stand around and bitch about noone having a gun.

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thnycav wrote:

Aaron1124 wrote:

slowfiveoh wrote:

Three things about this situation, that I am sure we can all agree on:

#1. This is the sad, demoralizing proof of society as a generalized whole, today.

#2. With open carry as a norm, this would all but disappear.

#3. Firearm training or not, it is good to get some hand-to-hand training as well.

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I think we can all agree on these three points.

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I do agree with 1 and 3 but as far as number2 it would not have changed the situation. The guy was a crazy and he did not have any regard for anyone. I do not think anything short of putting the barrel of a shotgun in his face would make him see reason.

I agree with the shotgun idea so long as it was a low recoil slug round or HP Sabot round. Or a Light Sabre and a quick swipe to the shoulder of the BGs 'gun' hand.

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THAT IS A CHIMP OUT:exclaim:

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I remember this video from almost 5 years ago. My thought was that the BF could have easily killed or permanently injured the victim.

I gotta say if a guy that big (130 lbs. on me, foot taller, 20 years younger) was pounding me like that I'd be in fear of death or maiming. I would have shot him if I could have regained coordination to draw.

That said, I seriously doubt I would have been in full control of my weapon after taking a hit or two like that.

Would the court expect you to lay down and prepare to die?

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ecocks wrote:

I remember this video from almost 5 years ago. My thought was that the BF could have easily killed or permanently injured the victim.

I gotta say if a guy that big (130 lbs. on me, foot taller, 20 years younger) was pounding me like that I'd be in fear of death or maiming. I would have shot him if I could have regained coordination to draw.

That said, I seriously doubt I would have been in full control of my weapon after taking a hit or two like that.

Would the court expect you to lay down and prepare to die?

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There was a case in Seattle, a while back, where an citizen, who was carrying concealed, was attacked and knocked to the ground, and then proceeded to draw his firearm, and shoot the attacker, killing him. He was brought in for questioning, but was released when they determined it was legitimate self defense. No charges were ever filed by prosecutors.

got to have guns said:

Iam a ex mma fighter, i have been out of the game a few years, but i would have put the stink on that dude. there are many guys out there that put on a good show,but when it comes down to busting heads they look like those guys. ITS TIME TO MAN UP!!!!!!!!!

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Oh hell yeah man.... rear naked choke. Id just wait until he had his back to me and like it all be quick and over with. A few years in Aikido, Jujitsu and lastly which I still enjoy, Aikijutsu... That big SOB would be sucking his own toes cause Id be so pi$$ed Id have to put the hot sauce to it.

The vid pisses me off, a room FULL of people, but none of them evidently had there sacks drop yet, just like little puppies. Sad as hell.

Cheers,
Andrew

I wouldn't have drawn and I probably wouldn't have tried to take the guy down. I've been in a situation like that where the guy that was raging was way smaller than the black man. The guy I took down was very strong and it took three or four of the biggest men on campus to pin him. Myself included. I am bigger than the attacker in the video, but I've had no hand-to-hand training whatsoever. I wanted to when I was younger, but my parents are religious zealots and would not hear of it. Now I can't afford it.

Anyway, looking at the video, I feel as though the room is too crowded to draw, I might feel differently if I was actually there, but from the comfort of my seat, I don't think I'd be comfortable drawing. I'd draw a taser if I had it, though IDK how much good that would do. I also agree with the others, the man clearly had tunnel vision, he wouldn't have noticed or cared if anyone was OC'ing.

a time to shoot

since the bystanders were all to one side of the action, except one guy by the door, there were many oppertunities
to draw and shoot the BG right in the head!
any time after the second blow, it was, in defence of another, pretty cut and dried, justifyable homicide.
and if the woman came after me after that, she would become fair game, i always carry at least 2 bullets!

eta; i would NOT give him any warning!

I really don't think there would be any way to justify a shooting. I think it would have only taken One (1) of those other bystanders to try and intervene. Just one of those other guys and probably one or two other bystanders would realize they could stop this. To bad not even a single guy in there had the fortitude to intervene. What a bunch of wussies.

I mean.. after the criminal leaves the store.. some other guys pick up the victim off the ground and help him stand.. Yeah.. thanks guys.. appreciate the help......

But No I would have never used a pistol in this situation unless it was to jam the butt of the pistol into the back of the criminals head. You can always use your firearm as a blunt instrument to beat someone with! Pistol whipped is certainly extremely painful and can easily split open a skull.

I don't talk about people behind their backs. Not even that ignorant ****. I would have directed what I had to say to her face. Not in a threatening manner and I would be more likely to attack her intelligence/ignorance rather than her fat ass.
Naturally, I'd be carrying so I would make sure I didn't seem aggressive. I'm sure it would have ended with myself and hopefully everyone else telling her to get the f*(k out.

If the her bf approached me, he would never get too close. What do you think everyone in the store would do if I drew my gun? Run out maybe? Hit the deck? Get behind me?

There's another factor to consider here. You take a step back, and you point the weapon at him. Here's where the chose your own adventure starts.

1) He doesn't stop coming, you shoot him. He falls to the ground, his girlfriend becomes hysterical: "You shot my man! He shot my man! You all saw what happened!"

2) He stops coming. His girlfriend gets hysterical: "You pulled a gun on my boy! Y'all see dis?! He pulled a gun on my boy!" If she approaches in a menacing way, you point the gun at her. "Y'all see this? He pulled a gun and pointed it at both of us! Y'all racist!"

The police officer arrives. He's got either one or two stories of an innocent black man who was murdered in cold blood, or five stories that a man, out-weighing any man in the room by over a hundred pounds, was shot by the man he assaulted in self-defense. Or one or two stories of a man brandishing a gun against a pair of black people.

The reason why every man in the room was a wussy is because no one wanted to be associated with any racial slight, edge, or a racist attack. Nevermind the fact that the man in question was, in fact, an ex-con, or the fact that his "girlfriend" seriously lacked self-control, or any sense of socialization in proper society.

Bubba start beating on cell-phone guy. Very severe.

Random OC'er draws piece to save cell-phone guy from grievous bodily harm.

"Hold it! That'll be just about enough of that!"

"What the FU** you gonna do wit that muthaFU****?! What thu FU** you gonna do, FU**IN Cracka?"
Bubba advances on OC'er, already hopped up on adrenaline from bashing cellphone guy, and well-accustomed to male aggression posturing and bluffing from so much time in prison.

OC'er shoots Bubba. Bubba likely survives. Maybe not, and one less cockroach.

Maybe a slight legal mess, pistol confiscated, but video tape and multiple witnesses clears up confusion, and OC'er eventually gets pistol back and is considered a hero by some, but half-assedly vilified by the media.

Cell-phone guy joins the Open Carry movement. 2-3 other customers from pizza joint follow suit, or at least apply for CCW's.

If I'm up against a guy like that, I'm going to continue shooting, clear any jams it has, continue shooting and reload as many times as it takes until I'm out of magazines. He will not survive.

architect said:

More to the point of this forum, had even one of those present been OC the incident would have been far less likely to have begun.

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Amen to that....

A lot of fantasy land here. Exactly when would you have pulled your gun out? That guy was a limp noodle before he saw the punch coming. Given what that guy did, CCW would have been worthless, OC could have gotten him killed. Standing toe to toe with somebody is like holding a gun to somebody's head while they hold a gun to yours. Who ever pulls the trigger first wins. Unless you have every intention to go first it is a stupid place to be. Since being the first to swing like that makes you the aggressor it is a lose lose.

If he had backed up and ordered the guy not to follow, he could have at least had a fighting chance once he ran out of room to retreat. If he had the brains to do that, a gun would have helped. Even without one, he'd have a better chance of making it out ok just by virtue of not being a dazed punching bag before he knew the fight started (I'm guessing it was about 20 minutes latter that he figured out the fight started).

inbox485 said:

A lot of fantasy land here. Exactly when would you have pulled your gun out? That guy was a limp noodle before he saw the punch coming. Given what that guy did, CCW would have been worthless, OC could have gotten him killed. Standing toe to toe with somebody is like holding a gun to somebody's head while they hold a gun to yours. Who ever pulls the trigger first wins. Unless you have every intention to go first it is a stupid place to be. Since being the first to swing like that makes you the aggressor it is a lose lose.

If he had backed up and ordered the guy not to follow, he could have at least had a fighting chance once he ran out of room to retreat. If he had the brains to do that, a gun would have helped. Even without one, he'd have a better chance of making it out ok just by virtue of not being a dazed punching bag before he knew the fight started (I'm guessing it was about 20 minutes latter that he figured out the fight started).

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That's where you "awareness zone" comes in to play. If you're carrying, you should always be in zone "yellow", at the least. This man, although enraged, was in zone "white". Completely unaware of the attack before it happened.

disgusting. i hope everyone in that joint is proud of themselves for watching a man get beaten senseless. the guy in orange who came in after it was over stepped over the cell guy's body!!! I dont care what the assailant looked like, if that happened in my presence i'd suckerpunch the guy in a heartbeat and hit him till he stayed down.

I know it sounds kinda fantasy and whatiffy, but the black guy's punches were slow and floppy. half of em were limp wristed. a good hook to the chin would screw his christmas up if not dislocate or break his jaw. then maybe a chop or finger strike to the throat, and a heel kick to the sternum. problem solved.

and just for fun, if the girlfriend tries to fight you, chokeslam her! lol!

but seriously, people should react to unneccessary violence in any way shape or form. thats how the flight 93 people guaranteed no further casualties incurred to the best of thier ability.

Kirbinator said:

If I'm up against a guy like that, I'm going to continue shooting, clear any jams it has, continue shooting and reload as many times as it takes until I'm out of magazines. He will not survive.

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If I were to pull my firearm in self-defense I would have to think I would pull the trigger. As far as emptying my magazine, I don't know. But what strikes me as odd about your statement is "clear any jams it has". Do you frequently have jams or do you anticipate a jam? If so maybe you should shop around for a better self-defense tool.

After watching the video a few times and reading through the pages of comments I don't know if it would be a good idea to draw down on a guy in small crowded space. Lets give an example as if you were someone else besides the victim in the room because the victim was so out of it if he was the one OCing or CCing he would not be able to defend himself anyway.

For the example lets say that you are the guy in the orange shirt seen at 0:03 in the video and you are carrying a firearm either OC or CC. When would you decide it was your time to intervene? I would think the best time if you chose to draw your weapon would only be after the boyfriend came in and punched the victim without warning.

However, upon drawing your weapon what would you do? Warn the boyfriend to stop? Shoot him without warning? Lets say that you draw your weapon after he punches the victim and you yell at him to stop. It would only take him a few steps to get right up on you if the firearm pointed at him wasn’t enough to deter him. That would give you only a few seconds to decide if you’re going to shoot him before he is on top of you beating the crap out of you and now you have a loaded firearm that he may be able to take from you. This is why I don’t think I would have drawn my weapon in this case.

What I think I would have done if I was the guy in orange would have been to get behind the guy and try to take him out. It would probably have only taken one “man” to get the rest of the “men” to jump in and help stop the boyfriend from beating the victim. I would not have wanted to draw down on him in a crowded area where there are people standing everywhere and I cannot guarantee that I will be able to maintain control of my firearm or keep it from being taken. So, I think that trying to take him out with brute force would be the better way to go than using the firearm.

Let’s see what you guys think but remember you are the guy that is in orange.

My responses to quotes in blue.

rmansu2 said:

I don't know if OC would have prevented this b/c when "Bubba" comes in he's already focused on his girl and the guy she has a problem with. If you did nothing to call attention to yourself until the first blow was landed, i doubt either one of them would have noticed.
I think if you pulled a gun on them and told them to stop they would have noticed you. However, I don’t think that pulling a gun in this crowded of a place where all it would take is the bad guy to take a few steps towards you to be very close to you would be a good idea.
On the other hand, it is possible everyone else in there would more likely have known you were OC'ing, and possibly backed out of the way of your draw. Drawing in a confined space packed with people and in close proximity to your attacker doesn't sound like the best plan.

I agree

I would like to think if I were put into the situation of a bystander, I would have stepped in after the first blow, if not before. Stepping in while OC'ing may have caused the first ever reported OC'er disarmed by an attacker and killed with his weapon.
I also agree with this. I would have stepped in after the first blow or possibly before to get the situation under control but I would not want to help the boyfriend get my weapon by taking it out of my holster for him (drawing in confined space).
I'm not against OC in any fashion. I OC and CC. But in this case I think brute force would have been the only way to stop it before Bubba was done. I can't believe 6-7 guys stood by and watched this happen.

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I agree a 100% brute force would probably have been the best bet and others probably would have helped out if someone stepped up and started to help.

1245A Defender said:

since the bystanders were all to one side of the action, except one guy by the door, there were many oppertunities
to draw and shoot the BG right in the head!
any time after the second blow, it was, in defence of another, pretty cut and dried, justifyable homicide.
and if the woman came after me after that, she would become fair game, i always carry at least 2 bullets!
I do not agree with shooting the girl because im sure if you had to shoot her boyfriend you could have the other “men” in the room help you control her.
eta; i would NOT give him any warning!

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I would only give warning if I drew my weapon but not if I was going to help with just brute force.

Kirbinator said:

There's another factor to consider here. You take a step back, and you point the weapon at him. Here's where the chose your own adventure starts.

1) He doesn't stop coming, you shoot him. He falls to the ground, his girlfriend becomes hysterical: "You shot my man! He shot my man! You all saw what happened!"
You would only have seconds to think crap he isn’t listening and is coming at me. Everyone including the security camera would have seen what happened so I don’t think the person who shot him would be at fault.
2) He stops coming. His girlfriend gets hysterical: "You pulled a gun on my boy! Y'all see dis?! He pulled a gun on my boy!" If she approaches in a menacing way, you point the gun at her. "Y'all see this? He pulled a gun and pointed it at both of us! Y'all racist!"
Oh well, let them think you racist because at least you saved some guy from being beaten to death.
The police officer arrives. He's got either one or two stories of an innocent black man who was murdered in cold blood, or five stories that a man, out-weighing any man in the room by over a hundred pounds, was shot by the man he assaulted in self-defense. Or one or two stories of a man brandishing a gun against a pair of black people.
Hopefully the security cam caught what really happened and people are truthful in there answers to the police.
The reason why every man in the room was a wussy is because no one wanted to be associated with any racial slight, edge, or a racist attack. Nevermind the fact that the man in question was, in fact, an ex-con, or the fact that his "girlfriend" seriously lacked self-control, or any sense of socialization in proper society.

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I think it would have only taken one person to try and stop the boyfriend to get all the others in the room to start helping too.

ooghost1oo said:

Bubba start beating on cell-phone guy. Very severe.

Random OC'er draws piece to save cell-phone guy from grievous bodily harm.

"Hold it! That'll be just about enough of that!"

"What the FU** you gonna do wit that muthaFU****?! What thu FU** you gonna do, FU**IN Cracka?"
Bubba advances on OC'er, already hopped up on adrenaline from bashing cellphone guy, and well-accustomed to male aggression posturing and bluffing from so much time in prison.

OC'er shoots Bubba. Bubba likely survives. Maybe not, and one less cockroach.

Maybe a slight legal mess, pistol confiscated, but video tape and multiple witnesses clears up confusion, and OC'er eventually gets pistol back and is considered a hero by some, but half-assedly vilified by the media.

Cell-phone guy joins the Open Carry movement. 2-3 other customers from pizza joint follow suit, or at least apply for CCW's.

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That is one of the scenarios that might work out if you were forced to shoot the guy.

Kirbinator said:

If I'm up against a guy like that, I'm going to continue shooting, clear any jams it has, continue shooting and reload as many times as it takes until I'm out of magazines. He will not survive.

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So you’re saying you would needlessly shoot a guy over and over and over again in a room full of crowded people where any one of those bullets could be fatal to others than your intended target? If you need that many bullets to put someone down I think you need more practice with a firearm or should not be carrying at all.