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Thread: Virginia's Monticello is a Gun-Free Zone

  1. #1
    Regular Member SAvage410's Avatar
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    Just sent this off to the foundation that runs Monticello:

    My wife and I recently visited Monticello. I had just exited the ticketing building after having picked up my Will-call tickets when I was approached by two members of your security staff - a female staffer with close-cropped gray hair, and a fairly large male staffer. I did not think to ask their names.

    Pointing to my legally carried sidearm, I was informed that Monticello, of all places, was a "Gun Free Zone" - despite the fact that there were no posted markings to that effect visible to me. Fortunately I had the means available to secure my weapon, and my wife and I were able to continue the tour.

    While I understand that Monticello is now owned by your private foundation and respect your property rights, you should know several things:

    Firstly, given the history of Thomas Jefferson himself, I can think of no higher affront to the memory of the man who penned our Declaration of Independence, thereby sparking our War of Independence.

    Secondly, had this not been my wife's dream tour, I would most assuredly have demanded my money back and would have left the premises. While you have your property rights, I still retain my rights of Freedom to Associate or not as I see fit. Had it not been for my wife's presence, I most certainly would have chosen not to associate with you or spend my hard-earned money supporting your anti-gun stance.

    Finally, while you may not much care about one person's money, I can assure you that there are many like-minded citizens such as myself. I will make it my personal mission to spread the word about your prohibitions so that others do not fall prey to your restrictions.

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    Thanks for the heads-up. Someone here had an issue there last year, however, the issue was resolved with the operators allowing for concealed carry. Perhaps the policy has changed in whole. Oh well, just another place I won't bother to spend my tourist money.

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    jmelvin wrote:
    Thanks for the heads-up. Someone here had an issue there last year, however, the issue was resolved with the operators allowing for concealed carry. Perhaps the policy has changed in whole. Oh well, just another place I won't bother to spend my tourist money.
    +1
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Too bad you didn't include some specific quotes from TJ himself ("let the gun be your constant companion" etc. etc.)
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Customs and Courtesies
    Photography and video recording for personal use are permitted on the grounds of Monticello, but not inside the house.

    Bags smaller than 11" by 15" by 6" may be carried past the parking area. Visitors are asked to hand-carry their bags while in the house.

    Some wheelchairs may be too large for use in the house. Approved-size wheelchairs may be used in, and borrowed from, the house.

    Eating, drinking and chewing gum are prohibited in the house. Monticello is a smoke-free site.

    Eating, drinking and flash photography are prohibited the Robert H. and Clarice Smith Gallery exhibitions.

    Electronic devices must be turned off inside the house.

    Small strollers are allowed in, and may be borrowed from, the house.

    As a courtesy, visitors with active or restless young children are asked to take turns touring the house.

    Leashed dogs that are not service animals are welcome at Monticello, but are not permitted indoors or on the shuttle bus. Service animals are permitted throughout the property.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I visited last summer, but carried concealed. Not only was I with my parents, but I was ill. Should I have needed medical attention, my parents could have taken my bag to safety.

    I specifically looked for signs, but saw none.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    I'll have to check out Jefferson's Poplar Forest estate just a bit up the road from where I live and see if I have any issues while OCing. I haven't been yet, so this may be a good reason to go.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Post Card Sent:
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Back
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    I went on the tour last year, but IIRC, it was cold and I was wearing a jacket, so I suppose I was CC while outside. I had no problems, even though I'm pretty sure I took my jacket off when in the house.



    Jefferson included this in his Commonplace book. Perhaps someone over there should read it.

    http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki...28Quotation%29

    "A principal source of errors and injustice are false ideas of utility. For example: that legislator has false ideas of utility who considers particular more than general conveniencies, who had rather command the sentiments of mankind than excite them, who dares say to reason, 'Be thou a slave;' who would sacrifice a thousand real advantages to the fear of an imaginary or trifling inconvenience; who would deprive men of the use of fire for fear of their being burnt, and of water for fear of their being drowned; and who knows of no means of preventing evil but by destroying it.

    The laws of this nature are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator? and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack unarmed than armed persons."


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    SAvage410 wrote:
    was informed that Monticello, of all places, was a "Gun Free Zone" - despite the fact that there were no posted markings to that effect visible to me.
    Why, why, why do people keep bringing up posting as if they SHOULD post - if you bring it up, they will come.

    Please stop the madness.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    SAvage410 wrote:
    was informed that Monticello, of all places, was a "Gun Free Zone" - despite the fact that there were no posted markings to that effect visible to me.
    Why, why, why do people keep bringing up posting as if they SHOULD post - if you bring it up, they will come.

    Please stop the madness.
    Not to speak about anyone personally, but in general I think it's just ingrained in our culture to be told what to do, and to ask to be told what to do. We have to make an effort to overcome it.

    Fortunately, hanging out around here for a while goes a long way towards that effort.

    TFred

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Ed can you share a link to your post card?? I would like to send one as well.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I was just there last month CCing, there was nothing I could see prohibiting carry, not that I was looking.

    ETA : Like others I don't Mr Jefferson would have approved.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Multiple reports of no publicly communicated policy, yet if you OC they ask you to leave.

    IMHO, this is the worst of all possible policies. It lets them avoid an unpopular (and given the original owner of the property, quite ridiculous) public stance on a politically driven policy which has no basis in sound data, while I'm sure they hope that the few incidents they do encounter will be calmly tolerated "for the sake of the children" or some other such drivel.

    No muss, no fuss, what you don't see doesn't really exist, and if you don't like it, well, it's for the children...

    :uke::

    I think a very good way to handle this in the future would be to confidently ask, "Do you think Mr. Jefferson would ask me to leave for this reason?"

    TFred


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    Regular Member SAvage410's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    I think a very good way to handle this in the future would be to confidently ask, "Do you think Mr. Jefferson would ask me to leave for this reason?"

    TFred
    Well, if they're waiting for me to ask, they will wait a very long time. This was my first, and, until the policy changes, last visit to that venue.

    Interestingly enough, we also toured Miche Tavern (and had lunch there - recommended), Jefferson vinyards, and Ash Lawn Highland, James Monroe's estate. Beyond those establishments, we stayed at a B&B not far from Monticello, had meals in Charlottesville, etc. etc., open carrying all the while. Except for Monticello itself, no one had any objections.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    t33j wrote:
    Ed can you share a link to your post card?? I would like to send one as well.
    sure.. www.amazingmail.com
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Mike wrote:
    SAvage410 wrote:
    was informed that Monticello, of all places, was a "Gun Free Zone" - despite the fact that there were no posted markings to that effect visible to me.
    Why, why, why do people keep bringing up posting as if they SHOULD post - if you bring it up, they will come.

    Please stop the madness
    What do you think is better?

    A) They do not post anti-gun policies, tricking those like us who would deny them our $ and supportwhile also fighting them publicly, all the while denying entry to those who violate their unwritten rules and OC.

    B) They are forced to either permit legal OC/CCW or come out of the darkness and face scrutiny and the likely financial impact of our denial of service.



    I choose B for the following reasons:

    I don't want to be tricked into supporting those who wish to deny my rights

    I don't believe CCW should be a special class that is afforded more than the ability to carry (VA law is full of that crap)

    I don't agree that letting an anti group have it both ways is preferrable. Let them post their rules. If I choose civil disobedience and willingly CCW anyway, I have much more concern about the consequences of my needing to draw/shoot vs. any repercussions from their private rules.



    Bring the flames, boyz. You disagree with nearly all my other positions already.

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    Tweaker wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    SAvage410 wrote:
    was informed that Monticello, of all places, was a "Gun Free Zone" - despite the fact that there were no posted markings to that effect visible to me.
    Why, why, why do people keep bringing up posting as if they SHOULD post - if you bring it up, they will come.

    Please stop the madness
    What do you think is better?

    A) They do not post anti-gun policies, tricking those like us who would deny them our $ and supportwhile also fighting them publicly, all the while denying entry to those who violate their unwritten rules and OC.

    B) They are forced to either permit legal OC/CCW or come out of the darkness and face scrutiny and the likely financial impact of our denial of service.



    I choose B for the following reasons:

    I don't want to be tricked into supporting those who wish to deny my rights

    I don't believe CCW should be a special class that is afforded more than the ability to carry (VA law is full of that crap)

    I don't agree that letting an anti group have it both ways is preferrable. Let them post their rules. If I choose civil disobedience and willingly CCW anyway, I have much more concern about the consequences of my needing to draw/shoot vs. any repercussions from their private rules.



    Bring the flames, boyz. You disagree with nearly all my other positions already.

    I'm with you on this one. Some folks worry that if you mention signs then they will get posted, and I say they should be. Either the place allows guns or they don't. I'd like to know if I'm not allowed to carry in your establishment before I get called out by security, probably in front of other people who will now look at me like I'm a criminal.

  20. #20
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Tweaker wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    SAvage410 wrote:
    was informed that Monticello, of all places, was a "Gun Free Zone" - despite the fact that there were no posted markings to that effect visible to me.
    Why, why, why do people keep bringing up posting as if they SHOULD post - if you bring it up, they will come.

    Please stop the madness
    What do you think is better?

    A) They do not post anti-gun policies, tricking those like us who would deny them our $ and supportwhile also fighting them publicly, all the while denying entry to those who violate their unwritten rules and OC.

    B) They are forced to either permit legal OC/CCW or come out of the darkness and face scrutiny and the likely financial impact of our denial of service.



    I choose B for the following reasons:

    I don't want to be tricked into supporting those who wish to deny my rights

    I don't believe CCW should be a special class that is afforded more than the ability to carry (VA law is full of that crap)

    I don't agree that letting an anti group have it both ways is preferrable. Let them post their rules. If I choose civil disobedience and willingly CCW anyway, I have much more concern about the consequences of my needing to draw/shoot vs. any repercussions from their private rules.



    Bring the flames, boyz. You disagree with nearly all my other positions already.
    No flames, just observations.

    For all practical purposes, places that do not post are permitting concealed carry. They might not like it, but in this state at least, unless it is a lawfully prohibited place, barring notice, you may carry concealed. It's a classic case of "Don't ask, don't tell."

    If forced to make a choice, they will, and often will choose wrong.

    The inequity of concealed carry is here for the foreseeable future.

    There are always going to be times when you cannot practically choose to leave. Determined spouses (as was mentioned in the OP), special occasions, etc. You are always better carrying concealed than being forced by a sign to secure your firearm in a car, especially if you must return to the car after observing a sign, and perhaps seen doing so by a potential thief.

    See, hardly a tan.

    TFred


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    Thanks, and I agree with you. I just don't like those who do not have a CCW to be restricted either.

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    Tess wrote:
    I visited last summer, but carried concealed. Not only was I with my parents, but I was ill. Should I have needed medical attention, my parents could have taken my bag to safety.

    I specifically looked for signs, but saw none.
    My traveling companion and I did the same when we went last year, September 11 actually. He concealed, I'm too skinny to conceal on my person when it's hot out and I wasn't carrying a purse. : ) I had seen someones posting earlier about being asked to conceal so we chose to not make an issue out of it and just go and enjoy our trip.

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    Poplar Forest is a no go. I use to work there, super liberal management.

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    TFred wrote:
    I think a very good way to handle this in the future would be to confidently ask, "Do you think Mr. Jefferson would ask me to leave for this reason?"

    TFred
    WWTJD?
    James Reynolds

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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    SAvage410 wrote:
    was informed that Monticello, of all places, was a "Gun Free Zone" - despite the fact that there were no posted markings to that effect visible to me.
    Why, why, why do people keep bringing up posting as if they SHOULD post - if you bring it up, they will come.

    Please stop the madness.
    So are you infering people should avoid the post/no post issue by conceal carry, cause apparently CC is a dirty word which as of late makes people go super zombie insane, frothing at the mouth and exploding at those who support it.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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