new thread from Experiences re: alchohol

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Bronson wrote:

cmdr_iceman71 wrote:

if an establishment is licensed to sell liquor then you cannot conceal in that establishment.

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Close but not quite right.

If the establishment is licensed to sellalcohol you may not OPEN carry, without a CPL anywhere on their property. With a CPL you may open or conceal carry unless the establishment earns the majority of their income from the sale of alcohol to be consumed on the pemises then you may NOT conceal.

Without CPL:

No OC if licensed to sellalcohol and obviously no concealing.

Unless you have permission from the owner or agent of the owner to possess the firearm, then you may OC....get it in writing.



With CPL:

May OC or CC if majority of income isnot generated by the sale of consumable alcohol.

If the majority of income IS genertated by consumable alcohol then you may NOT conceal, you must OC.

Bronson

750.234d

28.425o

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Yes, I know all of that but you weren’t standing there in front of her when she was being dismissive and impatient with my every reply hence I was trying to speak as succinctly as possible before she cut me off again.

What’s more I asked this very same question to the attorney that came to my CPL class to teach the legal portion that I’m about to ask now and I have yet to have anyone answer it to my satisfaction and that is:

"How is the average CCing patron supposed to know whether the establishment they are patronizing earns 50% or more of their income via alcohol/liquor sales. What are they supposed to do; ask to see their accounting books? If they guess incorrectly then they will have violated their CPL."

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I wasn't trying to berate you or belittle your handling of the situation. I was only trying to make sure you were aware of the wording of the law because based on your own statement your understanding appeared incorrect. You also quoted the law incorrectly to the officer and then backed up that incorrect information with the weight of Michigan Open Carry's name.Unfortunately if that officer double checksor already knows the actual wording of the law your erroneous statement will make her doubt the validity of everything you and, by extension, other Michigan Open Carry members have to say on the subject.

Again, I'm not trying to belittle your handling of it. It's a stressful and frustrating thing to go throughand it's easy tomake a slip of the tongue. Which iswhy it's probably better to sayas little as possible to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Be safe,

Bronson

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cmdr_iceman71 wrote:

SNIP
"How is the average CCing patron supposed to know whether the establishment they are patronizing earns 50% or more of their income via alcohol/liquor sales. What are they supposed to do; ask to see their accounting books? If they guess incorrectly then they will have violated their CPL."

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That is an incorrect interpretation of the law (section 5o).

It's actually, "...where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises."

The income from an establishment that serves alcohol could possibly be for example: 40% + 30% + 30%. Where the 40% may be income from food. In this case, a CPL holder can legally CC or OC.

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The spirit of the law is what is important, coupled with intent. If you CC in a taproom of a brewery that doesn't sell food, you are probably in violation. If you CC in a restaurant that seats 100 and has a bar that seats 10, you are probably safe in assuming that you are not in violation of the law, and I would feel confident telling that to a judge or jury if it came to that.

-Rob

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Rob Washeleski wrote:

The spirit of the law is what is important, coupled with intent. If you CC in a taproom of a brewery that doesn't sell food, you are probably in violation. If you CC in a restaurant that seats 100 and has a bar that seats 10, you are probably safe in assuming that you are not in violation of the law, and I would feel confident telling that to a judge or jury if it came to that.

-Rob

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I don’t even like the idea of taking the chance of violating my CPL by walking into one of those chain restaurants (i.e. Olive Garden, TGIF, Red Lobster, Chilis, Ruby Tuesday....etc) and having to guess whether they make more than 50% of their income selling alcohol/liquor. I just OC and not dwell it again.

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i usually go by what the bar is named, if it's a tavern, or a bar, I usually assume the PRIMARY (not 50%, as some people incorrectly site) is from alcohol, I don't conceal, it's it's named Buffalo Wild WINGS (implying it's a joint for wings and food) or Big Stud's bar and GRILL (which implies to me that equal amounts come from booze and food) I will conceal if I feel like it.

Most of my friends ask my to cover up in certain places to "avoid and confrontation" but then love to tell everyone "I'm one of those open carry dudes"

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I have another question about alcohol that intrigues me. Under Michigan CPL Laws person can not have alcohol level in blood above certain level. This level is very low. In fact it is much lower level that is established for legally operating a motor vehicle. The Law states:

"An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not possess a concealed pistol on their person or motor vehicle while they have any bodily alcohol content (.02 bodily alcohol content [BAC] or above) or a controlled substance"

In fact, legal limit for operating a motor vehicle in Michigan is 0.08 BAC. Here is the question:

What about OC. We know that CPL statutes do not apply to OC. Is there a Law in Michigan that establishes alcohollegal limit for OC (or non-CC if you wish)? If one exists, could you post?

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My best educated guess is .08, sorry no links or sites, just a guess.

God Bless

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OC is .08

If you really want to know you can call and ask what the % is as they have to know and there are other folk that cannot be there if it is over 50%.

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I still say that if you dont CC there is no issue. I dont know the limit for OC while drinking, I just beleive that guns and alcohol dont mix.

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Here is the MY General rule that i follow:

1) If the est. starts with Bar & grill,

2)Or uses the words Bar,or any word indicating liquor first in their Name, i for the most part do not carry, Not that i can't i just chose not to ... But i have OCed in a bar

theest. says food first in their name , pizza hut, olive garden, road house, Texas road house, TGIF,Binnegan's, etc i will eat there and not worry about it .

I have OCed for 3+ yrs in Michigan , Indiana,Ohio, ETC and have never had a problem:

Except in Battle Creek Mi. GRRR !!

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sasha601 wrote:

I have another question about alcohol that intrigues me. Under Michigan CPL Laws person can not have alcohol level in blood above certain level. This level is very low. In fact it is much lower level that is established for legally operating a motor vehicle. The Law states:

"An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not possess a concealed pistol on their person or motor vehicle while they have any bodily alcohol content (.02 bodily alcohol content [BAC] or above) or a controlled substance"

In fact, legal limit for operating a motor vehicle in Michigan is 0.08 BAC. Here is the question:

What about OC. We know that CPL statutes do not apply to OC. Is there a Law in Michigan that establishes alcohollegal limit for OC (or non-CC if you wish)? If one exists, could you post?

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http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xgov4cvsupglbu2c01rct345))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-237

In pertinent part:

750.237 Liquor or controlled substance; possession or use of firearm by person under influence; violation; penalty; chemical analysis.



Sec. 237.

(1) An individual shall not carry, have in possession or under control, or use in any manner or discharge a firearm under any of the following circumstances:

(a) The individual is under the influence of alcoholic liquor, a controlled substance, or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance.

(b) The individual has an alcohol content of 0.08 or more grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine.

(c) Because of the consumption of alcoholic liquor, a controlled substance, or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance, the individual's ability to use a firearm is visibly impaired.

(2) Except as provided in subsections (3) and (4), an individual who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $100.00 for carrying or possessing a firearm, or both, and not more than $500.00 for using or discharging a firearm, or both.