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Thread: What is your argument back to the CCer against OC?

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    What is your argument back to the concealed carry supporter who says

    "Open carry is a way to get yourself killed, if a criminal has intentions of committing a major robbery, or other serious crime in your presence. He sees your firearm, and realizes you're probably the only threat, and takes you out before you can react."

    Have you ever had that argument addressed to you? If so, what was your response? It is a valid argument, however, the one knock being, how often is that situation likely to arise VS the benefits of open carry?

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    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    I say: "I live in Wisconsin; the fascists in our legislature will not allow me my constitutional rights".
    Liberty or death. We're sorry, there are no other options available at this time..........
    "Safety is the new Liberty, and recklessness is the new Freedom, and alcoholism is the new Doug Huffman."

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    I'd say he is playing on fear, just like the antis do. There's been enough OC going on that if OC were dangerous in that way, we'd be seeing dead OCers.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    What is your argument back to the concealed carry supporter who says

    "Open carry is a way to get yourself killed, if a criminal has intentions of committing a major robbery, or other serious crime in your presence. He sees your firearm, and realizes you're probably the only threat, and takes you out before you can react."

    Have you ever had that argument addressed to you? If so, what was your response? It is a valid argument, however, the one knock being, how often is that situation likely to arise VS the benefits of open carry?
    My reply is simple:

    Show me a documented case where this has happened. I don't want a story about someone who heard about someone from an uncle who heard it from a cousin who talked with a friend on the internet... I want facts.

    By the way... it is NOT a valid argument. It is an argument based in the CC'ers own fear of being noticed in public..... of appearing "different" and not "fitting in".
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Open Carry isthe right, no government permission slip required.

    or....

    I open Carry for the CHILDREN!
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    I would respond with "I am sorry my exercising my constitutional rights frightens you so much that you have to beg the tyrants for permission to exercise yours. If you cant handle being different by even CCing, then why dont you just plaster a sign on your chest that states "Dear BG, I dont believe in carrying at all, please tie me up and have your way with my family. Thanks. Signed To Scared to be Different"...."

    Yea it is rude, but anyone who would tell me that me OCing would cause me to get shot first, doesnt know anything about how guns stops crime and are just regurgiating antis and media anti gun hype.

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    I'd respond with something like "It's more likely that said hypothetical criminal would wait till after I've departed, since in this instance I'm clearly the only one prepared to defend myself. Why would they take a chance of getting shot, when they could either go elsewhere or wait till I leave?"
    OC is a deterrent. If there is an increased chance to be the first target, so be it. Most things in life are a trade off, and it's but one of many. I'll take reduced crime in my presence over what I judge to be a minuscule chance that I'll get 'picked first' or whatever.

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    Most of the CC'ers feel they have a "Tactical Advantage" by not letting the would-be criminal know they are armed.

    My reply/question to this nonsensical spewings is "How are you going to draw your weapon from a concealed holster when the criminal already has his knife or gun drawn and pressed against your chest?


    the perceivedtactical advantage of surprise only applies in an offensive situation.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    I carry concealed. I don't open carry. I don't care if anybody else does.

    Tell them, "It's legal. It's none of your business. Get over it."
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I had a gun store employee tell me that while he was open carrying!!!!

    My response to him was to ask him, if he really thought that a criminal was going to take time to go into Wal-mart and search me out and take me out before committing his crime?

    Even criminals have an innate sense of self preservation and here in Washington several of us have seen the effect of the detterant effect of open carrying.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    III. State Statutes Regulating Firearms:
    A. Concealed Carry (CCW Statute): The law, in effect since 1872, provides ... Wis. Stat. § 941.23.
    1. Wisconsin and Illinois are the only two states ...

    2. Four objectives of concealed carry laws, per State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113 ¶¶54-56, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785:
    a. Carrying a concealed weapon permits a person to act violently on impulse, whether from anger or fear.
    Open carrying is not different. Concealed carry as the theme avoids the current controversy!
    b. People should be put on notice when they are dealing with an individual who is carrying a dangerous weapon. Notice permits people, including police, to act accordingly.

    c. Related to the previous objective, concealed weapons facilitate the commission of crime by creating the appearance of normality and catching people off guard.
    Open carry cannot create the appearance of normality, applying the traditional 'Square of Opposition'?
    d. Concealed carry laws promote the preservation of life by affixing a stigma of criminality to those who carry concealed weapons in cases except as those allowed by statute.
    Is stigma attached to openly carried weapons?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    III. State Statutes Regulating Firearms:
    A. Concealed Carry (CCW Statute): The law, in effect since 1872, provides ... Wis. Stat. § 941.23.
    1. Wisconsin and Illinois are the only two states ...

    2. Four objectives of concealed carry laws, per State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113 ¶¶54-56, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785:
    a. Carrying a concealed weapon permits a person to act violently on impulse, whether from anger or fear.
    Open carrying is not different. Concealed carry as the theme avoids the current controversy!



    b. People should be put on notice when they are dealing with an individual who is carrying a dangerous weapon. Notice permits people, including police, to act accordingly.

    c. Related to the previous objective, concealed weapons facilitate the commission of crime by creating the appearance of normality and catching people off guard.
    Open carry cannot create the appearance of normality, applying the traditional 'Square of Opposition'?


    d. Concealed carry laws promote the preservation of life by affixing a stigma of criminality to those who carry concealed weapons in cases except as those allowed by statute.
    Is stigma attached to openly carried weapons?
    Doug,

    I think you have a point there. Would you mind restating it in English for this befuddled auld phart who does not speak in sentence fragments?

    Thanks.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    That is a fragment of my trip report of listening to an attorney from a firm specializing in Town Law. My comments are the un-indented italics.

    The context is here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/43349.html

    I'll be glad to try to explain if it's still not clear. As I noted, I transcribed as little as possible.

    Personal attack deleted Present company excepted, of course.

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    I am not convinced that open carry presents a clear tactical advantage in situations such as the ones mentioned. I think open carry serves the following purposes:
    • Deterrence. Criminals are self-absorbed. It's about money most of the time. A criminal may still rob a store, but it probably won't be the one he knows he is risking his life to rob.
    • So what? I am always amused at people in my home state who are freaked out by the prospect of open carry. I always ask them something like (pretending to change the subject), "So what did you do today?" and as they describe their travels around town I ask them how many people they walked right by who might potentially have been carrying concealed weapons. It's like the old bit about a tree falling in a forest and no one is around to hear it: just because you can't see the gun, doesn't mean it isn't there. At which point I like to inform them that I am presently carrying a concealed firearm and it didn't even occur to them when they started talking about this that that might be the case.
    • As an expression of individual sovereignty. I am sure there are those who carry openly who are not out to make a statement, but like it or not, it does. It broadcasts something very specific about how an individual feels about his rights.
    • Normalizes guns. I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to look spiffy when carrying a firearm but I think many people think of Robert DeNiro's character in Taxi Driver when they think about citizens carrying handguns. When people buck that stereotype, it gives people something to think about. Even though it's no one's duty, it is an opportunity to present a positive image of those who believe in self-defense and the Rights of the Individual.
    I rarely carry openly (rarely, not never) for the following reasons, but have zero problem whatsoever with other people doing it, and in fact encourage it. I'd be more willing to carry openly in a protest - to make a statement, however:
    • I am not comfortable having my back turned to someone - such as in a checkout line, with my gun visible. I will never be comfortable doing this. I don't like the holsters with retention mechanisms (like the Blackhawk Serpas) for a variety of reasons (mainly personal preference) and I just don't like being in close proximity to people who know I have a pistol on me - especially since I carry a Glock with no safety. I would be more comfortable carrying in the backcountry or any environment where I am not in such close proximity to others.
    • I do not always want to put the "gun first" in terms of the impression I leave on people. If I know someone is rabidly anti-gun and a direct threat to my civil liberties, I'd enjoy annoying him with a simple expression of my rights, however generally speaking I hate the feeling of intimidating other people, however unreasonable, until and unless I know that person is a threat. Just a personal preference. If I am trying to make a political point, I have no problem open carrying. At the same time, I'm not intimidated at all by open carry and never have been and don't care what other people do.
    • Open carry invites attention. I like to be incognito or even invisible, if possible, in public. I don't like strangers walking up to me and starting conversations and I don't like to be scrutinized, generally speaking, and I extend this to others in the way I interact with them.
    I would like a world in which open carry didn't invite scrutiny, intimidate people, and so on. So I am willing to open carry for the express purpose of contributing to this, but as a practical matter, it just isn't for me.

    But I certainly advocate for the right to open carry, don't think it's at all dysfunctional or strange to do so (even if it isn't for me, in terms of personal preference). What's more honest than open carry? Not much. I am as committed to ensuring the government recognizes the right of open carry as someone who actually does open carry.

    People who oppose open carry, either from a legislative angle, or a personal one, are not reliable Second Amendment allies. I'd hate to suggest there's some kind of purity test for anything, but a person who thinks we ought to conceal weapons in shame have the wrong attitude entirely to a right so important it was expressly mentioned in the Bill of Rights. It would be the same as suggesting that while we have freedom of speech, but ought to speak our minds quietly and in private.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    crisisweasel wrote:
    People who oppose open carry, either from a legislative angle, or a personal one, are not reliable Second Amendment allies. I'd hate to suggest there's some kind of purity test for anything, but a person who thinks we ought to conceal weapons in shame have the wrong attitude entirely to a right so important it was expressly mentioned in the Bill of Rights. It would be the same as suggesting that while we have freedom of speech, but ought to speak our minds quietly and in private.
    And have to pay a tax to do so on top of that.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I did an experiment with my freind who refuses to see any value in OC.

    We took turns with a squirt gun, him concealed and me open carrying, and see who could get the guy who from 20' away decides to attack.

    Guess who won.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I've been facing it on a discussion on LinkedIn -- on an NRA board (go figure!).

    My response is that criminals prey on the weak and defenseless. When (IF) he sees a sidearm, he knows I am neither.

    I, like bikenut, invite them to provide evidence of their claim, and point to the number of interviews with incarcerated individuals who openly admit they did not prey on those who could defend themselves.

    Then sometimes, depending on how civil they keep the discussion, I express my apologies that they have to project their own behaviors on to others -- particularly on to criminals.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I did an experiment with my freind who refuses to see any value in OC.

    We took turns with a squirt gun, him concealed and me open carrying, and see who could get the guy who from 20' away decides to attack.

    Guess who won.
    Dennis Tueller won.

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    I just tell them that in my opinion criminals are generally cowards who won't endanger themselves if they see a gun in relatively plain sight. This is why most criminals don't do their thing around police.

    Also, by condemning OC in favor of CC because of the "surprise" factor they are saying two things. The first is that they're ashamed to be availing themselves of the right to carry. The second is that they're praying for a chance to legally kill someone.

    Kind of makes me wonder about their mental stability.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Bookman wrote:
    I just tell them that in my opinion criminals are generally cowards who won't endanger themselves if they see a gun in relatively plain sight. This is why most criminals don't do their thing around police.

    Also, by condemning OC in favor of CC because of the "surprise" factor they are saying two things. The first is that they're ashamed to be availing themselves of the right to carry. The second is that they're praying for a chance to legally kill someone.

    Kind of makes me wonder about their mental stability.
    +1 That whole "tactical" advantage thing always bothers me. As soon as I hear that I ask 'why are you looking for a chance to use it?'

    And the answer from some is yes.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Bookman wrote:
    I just tell them that in my opinion criminals are generally cowards who won't endanger themselves if they see a gun in relatively plain sight. This is why most criminals don't do their thing around police.

    Also, by condemning OC in favor of CC because of the "surprise" factor they are saying two things. The first is that they're ashamed to be availing themselves of the right to carry. The second is that they're praying for a chance to legally kill someone.

    Kind of makes me wonder about their mental stability.
    That doesn't make any sense at all to me. I CC and OC, but I can't see how this has anything to do with mental stability in any way at all.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Other than having to conceal a sidearm (by law) or interactive social/business considerations... I've come to a couple of conclusions about ardentCC'rs.

    They're self concious. They worry more about what (some) people will say and the reactions of strangers (and hostile LEO's) than the obvious reasons for being armed in the 1st place. They may even harbor various levels of guilt complexes from a lifetime of regional social/cultural conditioning.

    Many harbor a 'Secret Sam' poser personality... (these may be the typeswho buy those goofy CCW badges). I've read (and heard) all that anecdotal tactical advantage nonsense... originating from I dunno where. Prob'ly theguys who make a living on CCW clases. (Then it gets parrotted around 'cause it sound's 'cool'. As thothey know whatthey're doing... (they don't).

    Here's what a criminal sees: If you look like one of the sheep... you're a sheep. The criminal initiating the attack will always have the element of surprise. Defense is not a tactical advantage.Digging thru layers of clothing or pulling a pantleg up from a boot to get to an ankle holster while hopping around on one foot is not a tactical advantage. Neither is it a deterrent.

    The deterrent part is the obvious presence of the sidearm. The most effective weapon is the one you never have to use... simply because it's visible. True enough... there are still areas of the country where you maybe the object of a MWAG call. The 911 operators in those regions are still clueless... as are many of the LEO's. (This is particularly disturbing and inexcusablein traditionally OC states such as New Mexico.)

    My argument (if any) is this. I don't care what they do. In the event I have to use this pistol... the only concern I'll be having is dealing with and defeating the immediate event. That's not gonna be resolved on any internet forum. The proof will be in the pudding... as the saying goes.

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    "I've already got my first-hand, up-close and personal proof that open-carry prevents crime. In my case - a carjacking.

    Where's yours?"

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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    I would say "when it happens one day then i'll believe it"
    thats what i say too

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I did an experiment with my freind who refuses to see any value in OC.

    We took turns with a squirt gun, him concealed and me open carrying, and see who could get the guy who from 20' away decides to attack.

    Guess who won.
    This guy did.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE4f0fkLNg
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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