What is your argument back to the CCer against OC?

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Bookman wrote:

I just tell them that in my opinion criminals are generally cowards who won't endanger themselves if they see a gun in relatively plain sight. This is why most criminals don't do their thing around police.

Also, by condemning OC in favor of CC because of the "surprise" factor they are saying two things. The first is that they're ashamed to be availing themselves of the right to carry. The second is that they're praying for a chance to legally kill someone.

Kind of makes me wonder about their mental stability.

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+1 That whole "tactical" advantage thing always bothers me. As soon as I hear that I ask 'why are you looking for a chance to use it?'

And the answer from some is yes.

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Bookman wrote:

I just tell them that in my opinion criminals are generally cowards who won't endanger themselves if they see a gun in relatively plain sight. This is why most criminals don't do their thing around police.

Also, by condemning OC in favor of CC because of the "surprise" factor they are saying two things. The first is that they're ashamed to be availing themselves of the right to carry. The second is that they're praying for a chance to legally kill someone.

Kind of makes me wonder about their mental stability.

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That doesn't make any sense at all to me. I CC and OC, but I can't see how this has anything to do with mental stability in any way at all.

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Other than having to conceal a sidearm (by law) or interactive social/business considerations... I've come to a couple of conclusions about ardentCC'rs.

They're self concious. They worry more about what (some) people will say and the reactions of strangers (and hostile LEO's) than the obvious reasons for being armed in the 1st place. They may even harbor various levels of guilt complexes from a lifetime of regional social/cultural conditioning.

Many harbor a 'Secret Sam' poser personality... (these may be the typeswho buy those goofy CCW badges). I've read (and heard) all that anecdotal tactical advantage nonsense... originating from I dunno where. Prob'ly theguys who make a living on CCW clases. (Then it gets parrotted around 'cause it sound's 'cool'. As thothey know whatthey're doing... (they don't).

Here's what a criminal sees: If you look like one of the sheep... you're a sheep. The criminal initiating the attack will always have the element of surprise. Defense is not a tactical advantage.Digging thru layers of clothing or pulling a pantleg up from a boot to get to an ankle holster while hopping around on one foot is not a tactical advantage. Neither is it a deterrent.

The deterrent part is the obvious presence of the sidearm. The most effective weapon is the one you never have to use... simply because it's visible. True enough... there are still areas of the country where you maybe the object of a MWAG call. The 911 operators in those regions are still clueless... as are many of the LEO's. (This is particularly disturbing and inexcusablein traditionally OC states such as New Mexico.)

My argument (if any) is this. I don't care what they do. In the event I have to use this pistol... the only concern I'll be having is dealing with and defeating the immediate event. That's not gonna be resolved on any internet forum. The proof will be in the pudding... as the saying goes.

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"I've already got my first-hand, up-close and personal proof that open-carry prevents crime. In my case - a carjacking.

Where's yours?"

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Ca Patriot wrote:

I would say "when it happens one day then i'll believe it"

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thats what i say too

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

I did an experiment with my freind who refuses to see any value in OC.

We took turns with a squirt gun, him concealed and me open carrying, and see who could get the guy who from 20' away decides to attack.

Guess who won.

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This guy did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE4f0fkLNg

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rodbender wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

I did an experiment with my freind who refuses to see any value in OC.

We took turns with a squirt gun, him concealed and me open carrying, and see who could get the guy who from 20' away decides to attack.

Guess who won.

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This guy did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE4f0fkLNg

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bwahahaha

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Nutczak wrote:

Most of the CC'ers feel they have a "Tactical Advantage" by not letting the would-be criminal know they are armed.

My reply/question to this nonsensical spewings is "How are you going to draw your weapon from a concealed holster when the criminal already has his knife or gun drawn and pressed against your chest?


the perceivedtactical advantage of surprise only applies in an offensive situation.

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How are you going to draw on a criminal that already has his knife or gun drawn and pressed against your chest if you're open carrying? Either CC or OC, it's liable to end up in the L column. So, your argument is a moot one, at best.

If somebody decides to carry for the right reasons, I could care less how they do it.

However, one common question on the OC.org forums has me for a loop. If there's not been a case where an open carrier has been disarmed by a bad guy, why so much concern for retention holsters?

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catass wrote:

Nutczak wrote:

Most of the CC'ers feel they have a "Tactical Advantage" by not letting the would-be criminal know they are armed.

My reply/question to this nonsensical spewings is "How are you going to draw your weapon from a concealed holster when the criminal already has his knife or gun drawn and pressed against your chest?


the perceivedtactical advantage of surprise only applies in an offensive situation.

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How are you going to draw on a criminal that already has his knife or gun drawn and pressed against your chest if you're open carrying?

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I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume that an openly armed man is less likely to be a target in this situation than a man who appears unarmed.

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catass wrote:

However, one common question on the OC.org forums has me for a loop. If there's not been a case where an open carrier has been disarmed by a bad guy, why so much concern for retention holsters?

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So the gun doesn't fall on the floor.

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Bikenut wrote:

catass wrote:

However, one common question on the OC.org forums has me for a loop. If there's not been a case where an open carrier has been disarmed by a bad guy, why so much concern for retention holsters?

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So the gun doesn't fall on the floor.

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I know for me, I 'd like a retention holster for when I go jogging or engage in other activities that may result in my pistol falling out of a non retention holster.

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catass wrote:

How are you going to draw on a criminal that already has his knife or gun drawn and pressed against your chest if you're open carrying? Either CC or OC, it's liable to end up in the L column. So, your argument is a moot one, at best.

If somebody decides to carry for the right reasons, I could care less how they do it.

However, one common question on the OC.org forums has me for a loop. If there's not been a case where an open carrier has been disarmed by a bad guy, why so much concern for retention holsters?

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Oh, I'm the victim of the pistol that fell out of a holster onto a tile floor in a restroom. Knocked the sights all out of alignment.

And that WAS a retention holster (I just hadn't double-checked the snap).

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Aaron1124 wrote:

catass wrote:

Nutczak wrote:

Most of the CC'ers feel they have a "Tactical Advantage" by not letting the would-be criminal know they are armed.

My reply/question to this nonsensical spewings is "How are you going to draw your weapon from a concealed holster when the criminal already has his knife or gun drawn and pressed against your chest?


the perceivedtactical advantage of surprise only applies in an offensive situation.

Click to expand...

How are you going to draw on a criminal that already has his knife or gun drawn and pressed against your chest if you're open carrying?

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume that an openly armed man is less likely to be a target in this situation than a man who appears unarmed.

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You know what they say about assumptions

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I sometimes CC and sometimes OC. More OC now than I used to but my response is I will take my chances and I am glad to know that someone may have my back should I ever need to use my gun.

In my case more likely than not it will be my wife with her conceal carried 9mm.

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I had a "conversation" with a CC-only man about two weeks ago. None of my arguments made it into his little mind. Some people have their minds made up regardless of any facts.

I have read the same story of 70% of interviewed prisoners said that if they knew a target was armed they would choose a softer target. So OC-ing proactively saves your arse 70% of the time (probably without you even knowing it) while CC-ing reactively only saves your arse if you can get to it in time.

I think of OCing as being analogous to someone buying a home security system from ADT and putting that ADT sign in their front yard. The installer for our system told me that probably 80% of the safety comes from that sign. If a robber sees that a house has a security system he chooses a different house. If you CC it is like spending the 2 grand on a security system and not putting the sign up!

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45acpForMe wrote:

I think of OCing as being analogous to someone buying a home security system from ADT and putting that ADT sign in their front yard. The installer for our system told me that probably 80% of the safety comes from that sign. If a robber sees that a house has a security system he chooses a different house. If you CC it is like spending the 2 grand on a security system and not putting the sign up!

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Very good analogy.

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Aaron1124 wrote:

45acpForMe wrote:

I think of OCing as being analogous to someone buying a home security system from ADT and putting that ADT sign in their front yard. The installer for our system told me that probably 80% of the safety comes from that sign. If a robber sees that a house has a security system he chooses a different house. If you CC it is like spending the 2 grand on a security system and not putting the sign up!

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Very good analogy.

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BUT WAIT!!!

don't you lose the tactical advantage?!?!?!

don't you want the element of surprise?!?!?!

hahahaha

If you put the sign up, it will only cause your house to be robbed first!

:lol:

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I just tell them I prefer comfort, over "tactical advantage".
Course, I'm to young to CC anywhere but on my property; so it's a moot point.

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I do both so I will start by saying I am not bias one way or another.
When you CC I really hate that you have to "get ready" first when you expect a threat. This means- uncover the pistol.. or reaching into your shirt... or reaching back to your belt loop.. Something other than normal- so whoever is watching you will already know the "get ready to grab the pistol" dance. At this point- when you are threatened- you will be OCing one way or another when the pistol comes un-holstered.

I really hate OC for the fact mentioned above by one of the original posters.. I am 23 and have friends in the burbs all over Metro Denver. I have friends with families and small kids. I HATE OCing because you always have to double check like.. hey is it cool if I'm strapped in front of your 5 year old? Or like.. Oh your aunt's over today? Is it cool if come in strapped or should I leave it in the car? Crap like that. It's not always cool to pull that stuff on people. Your friends shouldn't always be concerned about whether or not you're dropping by strapped. Do they need to tell their visiting mother about the guy who's about to come through the door, strapped? Or is he not carrying today?

OC really does put people out. It's not for every situation. I open carry ALLLL the time, but that's because I go hiking allllll the time. I will not just open carry willy nilly into any privately owned business. Not without knowing people there first. I don't want to make a stand. I'm not trying to argue with people ALL the time.

My friends and family can't assume I will always be carrying openly; it's just not fair to them. And yes these are very good friends. SO What if they don't like open carry? They are great friends.. I Don't need to impose on them all the time.


Now I know my way around... years later.. who tolerates open carry.. which friends do not. Which friends have friends that have friends that hate guns. Which friends have friends that have friends that carry knives to parties. Which friends have families that have children that are scared of guns.. etc.

So I have to do both; it's never been a contest.

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Anytime this comes up, I ask them if they know of ANY recent news stories of a CCer who was attacked and had to defend themselves.

Of course, since such stories are pretty common, they will say yes, and then repeat the story.

Then I ask them if they know of any, and I stress ANY news stories--EVER--of an OCer who was attacked and had to defend themselves.

They always so "no". So I ask why they think that is.

Of course, the answer is that criminals don't attack OCers, because criminals are lazy, cowardly, and don't want to have to work for their take...

Personally I would mUCH rather OC and NEVER have to use my firearm to defend myself than OC and have to use it even once, because some BG thought I was just another unarmed "easy mark" that couldn't defend myself.

OC lets the criminal element know EXACTLY where you stand on the matter of personal safety and the safety and security of those around you. And criminals, as stupid as they are, have admitted -- in study after study -- that they fear armed citizens WAY more than they fear the police or the judicial system.

The ONLY people who attack OCers and try to steal their firearms are LEO's. This is a documented fact that cannot be disputed...