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Thread: My first encounter with the uneducated

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    Regular Member Trinitas's Avatar
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    I'm fairly new to guns as a whole, I won't lie. I know very little, but I am eager and open minded and have already been to more of the OC meets than I have posts and gotten to listen to a few of you guys talk - for hours - about guns, and carrying laws.

    So today, I decided to enter a contest. It's basically a debate contest, I bring up the topic, he comes back with his thoughts, etc. Whomever brings him the most interesting and challenging debate by the end of the week wins a prize. I chose to do mine on open carrying. I started it off simple, addressing the fact that I liked the awareness it promoted, and the display of our rights as American citizens. That I was very much naive about guns not too long ago, but as my awareness grows, so does my support of our liberties and rights to them.

    The response back I got was pretty much what I expected - but boy I didn't think I'd ever get so riled up about it. My response is already in the works, but thought I'd share what he said back to me with you guys for the heck of it. I know it'll ruffle up more than one of ya'lls feathers.

    OK.. so guns... I'm not a huge fan of just letting people carry. I think that people do have a right to guns.. i think that people have a right to hunt and to protect themselves. However, letting the widespread populace carry guys on them at all times is just a bad idea for a number of reasons.

    1) Accidents - hello plaxico burress... yes i know.. teach people safety but really we teach people how to drive and look at the number of incidents

    2) Rage - so many times people get into fights.. if guns were around.. ummm bad idea...

    3) Use if for defense? Really? If you think your gun will protect you then you must be joking. IF you really think about it why would u need a gun to protect u at a distance? Just run. Up close.. i can take your gun without even trying.. especially if the situation that causes violence isn't a situation that would instantly cause you to fear for your life. I've seen bouncers carry.. what a dumb ass idea...

    Its really a question about the "why" and the risk analysis. There is no reasonable social arguement as to why people should be able to carry in public especially in crowded areas. I have no problem with ownership.. but the carry laws someplaces are just dumb.

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    Trinitas wrote:
    OK.. so guns... I'm not a huge fan of just letting people carry. I think that people do have a right to guns.. i think that people have a right to hunt and to protect themselves. However, letting the widespread populace carry guys on them at all times is just a bad idea for a number of reasons.

    1) Accidents - hello plaxico burress... yes i know.. teach people safety but really we teach people how to drive and look at the number of incidents
    By this logic, anything that could potentially have accidentally fatal consequences should be outlawed. Accidents involving aircraft almost never end well for the passengers. We don't outlaw air travel because the benefits far outweigh the potentially negative consequences. Of course firearm accidents can be deadly, but it is those potentially deadly capabilities that make a firearm the most useful and effective tool of self defense.
    Those who seek to blame the object rather than the user use irrational logic. Cars are not to blame for DUI's. The sun is not to blame when you carelessly venture into the desert with no water. So why is a gun to blame when a person handles one carelessly?
    2) Rage - so many times people get into fights.. if guns were around.. ummm bad idea...
    Road rage happens every day with potentially deadly consequences. Lots of people carry matches or lighters, which can be used to set a person or building on fire in a fit of rage. Heck, in a fit of rage, a person could push another person off a third floor balcony. Should we try to outlaw gravity?
    I contend that it is because of potential rage exhibited by others that citizens should protect themselves with the most competent tool available: a firearm. You never know when someone might just snap. Perhaps the presence of a firearm, especially an openly carried firearm might be enough of a visual deterrent that prevents another from becoming enraged.
    Finally, firearms have a very sobering effect upon people because they are a reminder that life is fragile and seeing the light of day tomorrow is a guarantee unfortunately none of us live with. Isn't it more likely that a person carrying a firearm is unlikely to get into a fight for this very reason? First, others will be hesitant to pick a fight with an armed individual. Second, many armed citizens will remove themselves from an escalating situation because they know just how quickly a situation can turn deadly.
    3) Use if for defense? Really? If you think your gun will protect you then you must be joking. IF you really think about it why would u need a gun to protect u at a distance? Just run. Up close.. i can take your gun without even trying.. especially if the situation that causes violence isn't a situation that would instantly cause you to fear for your life. I've seen bouncers carry.. what a dumb ass idea...
    First, what kind of distance are we talking about? You are right that shooting at a distance of 100+ yards is a sport, but has little defensive value. But what about 10 yards? Defensive experts suggest an assailant can cover that distance before most people can even draw their weapons.
    This seems to validate your second point that you could take my gun without even trying. Maybe. But at least I have a chance. If you are so intent on doing me harm that the presence of my loaded gun doesn't compel you to find an easier target, than my life is already in serious danger. And if that's the case, I'm sure glad I at least have a chance to defend myself in that situation.
    Its really a question about the "why" and the risk analysis. There is no reasonable social arguement as to why people should be able to carry in public especially in crowded areas. I have no problem with ownership.. but the carry laws someplaces are just dumb.
    There is no reasonable argument for carrying in public? You need only turn on your local news station tonight and you'll hear several reasonable arguments why a person should be armed in this society.
    If you have no problem with gun ownership than what do you propose are reasonable laws regarding when/where a gun may be carried? Remember, my gun is for self-defense. I'm not going to draw or fire my weapon unless my life is in danger.
    A criminal who intends to victimize me is already going to break the law prohibiting him from victimizing me, so why should I believe he will respect the law forbidding him from carrying a firearm? Risk analysis would therefore dictate that we should eliminate any laws restricting carry, since those forbidden areas are the most dangerous for a law abiding citizen. A criminal can find his victim anywhere, but in legislated gun-free zones, the citizen unfortunately can't fight back.
    Trinitas--

    Welcome to the forum!! Glad you've joined us.

    Tim

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    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    1) Accidents - hello plaxico burress... yes i know.. teach people safety but really we teach people how to drive and look at the number of incidents
    I've heard the "Plaxico" argument from several people. I don't know why one dude carrying illegally, concealed, and "Thug Style" (No holster, stuck down the front of the pants) could be an argument against lawful open carry.
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
    -- Charles A. Beard
    XD(m) 9mm

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    flagellum wrote:
    1) Accidents - hello plaxico burress... yes i know.. teach people safety but really we teach people how to drive and look at the number of incidents
    I've heard the "Plaxico" argument from several people. I don't know why one dude carrying illegally, concealed, and "Thug Style" (No holster, stuck down the front of the pants) could be an argument against lawful open carry.
    It's a very poor argument. Open Carry is actually safer as you are carrying the weapon in a belt holster as many guns were intended to be carried. Trying to conceal some models of firearms can be quite dangerous due to their designs--and coupled with some of the poorly designed/built holsters on the market makes things even worse. Openly carrying a weapon, on the belt, in a well built leather or kydex holster is the safest way to go.

    The Plaxico argument is also flawed in that if we, as a society, were to make illegal all items that harm ourselves or others then the first item on the list would be cars!

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    Don't forget water. We need to outlaw water.

    http://uneasysilence.com/archive/2007/01/9209/

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    3) Use if for defense? Really? If you think your gun will protect you then you must be joking. IF you really think about it why would u need a gun to protect u at a distance? Just run. Up close.. i can take your gun without even trying.. especially if the situation that causes violence isn't a situation that would instantly cause you to fear for your life. I've seen bouncers carry.. what a dumb ass idea...
    You need to sit your friend down and make him watch this video of a self defense shooting at a Wal-greens in Nebraska:

    http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/92457584.html

    Click on the 'McCullough News Conference' and watch the whole thing. One thing that really pisses me off are folks that say they are all for guns for hunting and defense, and yet turn right around and say 'but carrying weapons is a dumb idea'. How do you hunt or effectively defend yourself without carrying a weapon on you?

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Rage, Instant anger. I would suspect that the presence ofa firearm would tend to cool the rage of most people. Where they might lose their cool and attack you if you were unarmed, they would think about it if you are. "An armed society is a polite society". I have found this to be 100 percent correct. One of the things most notable to me since I started visibly carrying is that people tend to be much more courteous and pleasant in their casual interactions with me.

    BG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    The Big Guy wrote:
    Rage, Instant anger. I would suspect that the presence ofa firearm would tend to cool the rage of most people. Where they might lose their cool and attack you if you were unarmed, they would think about it if you are. "An armed society is a polite society". I have found this to be 100 percent correct. One of the things most notable to me since I started visibly carrying is that people tend to be much more courteous and pleasant in their casual interactions with me.

    BG
    Just as a follow-up thought, I find myself to be more courteous and pleasant with otherswhen I'm carrying.

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