Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 67

Thread: Ammuniton

  1. #1
    Regular Member Recoil88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    112

    Post imported post

    What kind of ammunition do you use for personal defense rounds? I use hydra shocksin my m&p 40c.
    In a situation when seconds count-The police will be there in minutes.

  2. #2
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  3. #3
    Regular Member American Boy With a Gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    656

    Post imported post

    Ima carry bonded hollow points in the warm months and FMJ in the colder, idk if thats a good idea or not, but i wouldnt see why not, or carry a mag of one a mag of another and a mag of mix and match every other round.....
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -- Samuel Adams, 1776

    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject

  4. #4
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    942

    Post imported post

    Enlighten me as to why you would go from JHP's to FMJ in the cooler months.

  5. #5
    Regular Member American Boy With a Gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    656

    Post imported post

    Well it would figure that FMJ's would penetrate more.....no?.....in the cooler months people (yes, criminals are people :P ) would be wearing more/thicker clothing....or would a hollowpoint penetrate just as well?.....
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -- Samuel Adams, 1776

    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject

  6. #6
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Good quality modern Hollow points will work just as well with winter clothing as without.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  7. #7
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    942

    Post imported post

    American Boy With a Gun wrote:
    Well it would figure that FMJ's would penetrate more.....no?.....in the cooler months people (yes, criminals are people :P ) would be wearing more/thicker clothing....or would a hollowpoint penetrate just as well?.....
    Ah, I see. I've never really heard of that. Fairly certain that you'd be ok. I'll see if there's any truth to this myth...

  8. #8
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    FatboyCykes wrote:
    American Boy With a Gun wrote:
    Well it would figure that FMJ's would penetrate more.....no?.....in the cooler months people (yes, criminals are people :P ) would be wearing more/thicker clothing....or would a hollowpoint penetrate just as well?.....
    Ah, I see. I've never really heard of that. Fairly certain that you'd be ok. I'll see if there's any truth to this myth...
    http://www.theboxotruth.com/
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  9. #9
    Regular Member American Boy With a Gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    656

    Post imported post

    Well i just sorta figured.....and with some of what zig and Stainless said in Zig's thread, and i wouldnt mind having more than one type of ammunition available to me....but yes, some of the info im reading on hollowpoints make strong mention of good winter clothing penetration....i might just stick with one....or maybe ill switch it up depending on how i feel that morning.....idk
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -- Samuel Adams, 1776

    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject

  10. #10
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    American Boy With a Gun wrote:
    Well i just sorta figured.....and with some of what zig and Stainless said in Zig's thread, and i wouldnt mind having more than one type of ammunition available to me....but yes, some of the info im reading on hollowpoints make strong mention of good winter clothing penetration....i might just stick with one....or maybe ill switch it up depending on how i feel that morning.....idk
    You need to remember that over-penetration can be a worse problem... if you get a pass through what is behind your intended target?
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  11. #11
    Regular Member American Boy With a Gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    656

    Post imported post

    Good point, i think ill just stick to JHP
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -- Samuel Adams, 1776

    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject

  12. #12
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    I now carry hand loaded Hornady JHPs.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  13. #13
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    I now carry hand loaded Hornady JHPs.
    I plan to start loading my own for my CZ as the current 9X18 loads are so anemic and the CZ was built for far hotter loads than the Makorov.

    I plan to use Hornady XTP's over a to be determined charge of low flash Titegroup
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    144

    Post imported post

    IMHO this is another one of those issues (like 9mm vs. 40S&W) that gets a lot of "air time" but is really marginally important.

    Think about it ... approximately 90% of self defense situations will end when you draw your pistol. Doesn't matter what kind of pistol ... when most perps see a gun they turn and run in the opposite direction (in search of easier prey).

    Of the remaining 10% ... probably 5-7% will end when you pull the trigger ... whether you hit the guy or not. The muzzle blast, and/or feeling of a round impacting anywhere on the body, will cause the bad guy to turn and flee (or fall to the ground blubbering and crying - happens a lot).

    Which leaves us with 3-5% of incidents ... those hard core offenders who really have to be "put down" to end the attack (often drunk or high on something).

    Here's the bad news for these guys ... they're going to take multiple hits to stop AND they're likely going to get to you (and do some damage) before they go down. Unless you score a head shot ... break a major leg bone, or shred the heart, or a huge artery (think aorta) these guys will keep coming even with 5+ rounds of 9mm, .40, .45 ... .357 ... just about any of the major defensive calibers in them. The literature is FULL of these scenarios.

    And here's more bad news ... to get those 5+ hits ... you're likely going to fire 10, 15, 20+ rounds. Even experienced, well trained police officers miss MOST of the shots they fire in these kinds of scenarios (they score hits 10-20% of the time!)

    So is overpenetration with ball ammo and wound cavity caused by expansion a consideration? I suppose so ... but the rounds you'll REALLY need to be concerned about aren't the overpenetrating ones (which will only have marginal velocity left once they exit anyway) ... but all the misses. And is a round that expands better than one that doesn't? I guess ... but when you need to score 5+ shots to get a stop it probably isn't going to matter if it's 5+ hits with FMJ ammo or HP ammo.

    So bottom line? My "ammo selection philosophy" ... especially with automatics (less important with revolvers) is this: use the most reliable brand of ammo you can ... the one that feeds through your automatic FLAWLESSLY.

    Difference in stopping power between FMJ and a "fancy HP"? Trivial.

    Difference between a round that goes "BANG!" and ejects cleanly and one that jams your pistol? Potentially fatal.


    autosurgeon wrote:
    American Boy With a Gun wrote:
    Well i just sorta figured.....and with some of what zig and Stainless said in Zig's thread, and i wouldnt mind having more than one type of ammunition available to me....but yes, some of the info im reading on hollowpoints make strong mention of good winter clothing penetration....i might just stick with one....or maybe ill switch it up depending on how i feel that morning.....idk
    You need to remember that over-penetration can be a worse problem... if you get a pass through what is behind your intended target?

  15. #15
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    CrimDoc wrote:
    IMHO this is another one of those issues (like 9mm vs. 40S&W) that gets a lot of "air time" but is really marginally important.

    Think about it ... approximately 90% of self defense situations will end when you draw your pistol. Doesn't matter what kind of pistol ... when most perps see a gun they turn and run in the opposite direction (in search of easier prey).

    Of the remaining 10% ... probably 5-7% will end when you pull the trigger ... whether you hit the guy or not. The muzzle blast, and/or feeling of a round impacting anywhere on the body, will cause the bad guy to turn and flee (or fall to the ground blubbering and crying - happens a lot).

    Which leaves us with 3-5% of incidents ... those hard core offenders who really have to be "put down" to end the attack (often drunk or high on something).

    Here's the bad news for these guys ... they're going to take multiple hits to stop AND they're likely going to get to you (and do some damage) before they go down. Unless you score a head shot ... break a major leg bone, or shred the heart, or a huge artery (think aorta) these guys will keep coming even with 5+ rounds of 9mm, .40, .45 ... .357 ... just about any of the major defensive calibers in them. The literature is FULL of these scenarios.

    And here's more bad news ... to get those 5+ hits ... you're likely going to fire 10, 15, 20+ rounds. Even experienced, well trained police officers miss MOST of the shots they fire in these kinds of scenarios (they score hits 10-20% of the time!)

    So is overpenetration with ball ammo and wound cavity caused by expansion a consideration? I suppose so ... but the rounds you'll REALLY need to be concerned about aren't the overpenetrating ones (which will only have marginal velocity left once they exit anyway) ... but all the misses. And is a round that expands better than one that doesn't? I guess ... but when you need to score 5+ shots to get a stop it probably isn't going to matter if it's 5+ hits with FMJ ammo or HP ammo.

    So bottom line? My "ammo selection philosophy" ... especially with automatics (less important with revolvers) is this: use the most reliable brand of ammo you can ... the one that feeds through your automatic FLAWLESSLY.

    Difference in stopping power between FMJ and a "fancy HP"? Trivial.

    Difference between a round that goes "BANG!" and one that jams your pistol? Potentially fatal.


    autosurgeon wrote:
    American Boy With a Gun wrote:
    Well i just sorta figured.....and with some of what zig and Stainless said in Zig's thread, and i wouldnt mind having more than one type of ammunition available to me....but yes, some of the info im reading on hollowpoints make strong mention of good winter clothing penetration....i might just stick with one....or maybe ill switch it up depending on how i feel that morning.....idk
    You need to remember that over-penetration can be a worse problem... if you get a pass through what is behind your intended target?
    The flaw in your thinking is this...(highly trained police officers) I have seen more officers shoot than I care to and I don't want any but a select few backing me up!

    Most of em can hardly hit the broad side of a barn from inside and that is at a range with no stress!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    144

    Post imported post

    Point taken ... but there are plenty of CPLs and OCers out there who have no more training / experiece then your average cop. Sure they may spend lots of time hunting, or shooting at paper targets on the range, or plinking pop cans ... but experience / training in true tactical situations? Those folks are quite rare.

    And even if you generously assume that the average armed citizen will do TWICE as well as your average cop ... and score 20-40% hits ... my point is still that it's the misses that are far more critical than the hits which over penetrate ... and the number of cases where 4 or 5 solid torso hits with say ... .40 FMJ will NOT stop an attacker but 4 or 5 solid torso hits with .40 HP WOULD HAVE dropped that same attacker will be trivial (though admittedly, not zero).

    autosurgeon wrote:
    The flaw in your thinking is this...(highly trained police officers) I have seen more officers shoot than I care to and I don't want any but a select few backing me up!

    Most of em can hardly hit the broad side of a barn from inside and that is at a range with no stress!

  17. #17
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    CrimDoc wrote:
    And here's more bad news ... to get those 5+ hits ... you're likely going to fire 10, 15, 20+ rounds. Even experienced, well trained police officers miss MOST of the shots they fire in these kinds of scenarios (they score hits 10-20% of the time!)
    This is the fundamental reason why many people, including me, are very skeptical of the modern technique for use by the average gun carrier.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  18. #18
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Well here is another point for ya...

    JHP tend to lose more energy when going through obstructions therefore not being as apt to kill someone downrange...

    However my final point is that a good JHP or EFMJ that works correctly is far more likely to get you a stop if you get those direct hits then a round that does not expand...

    And here is why... An expanded round is more likely to deviate from the path of entry therefor doing more damage than a round that goes straight through. Anyone that hunts knows that a SP or HP does more damage and is far more likely to produce a clean kill.

    Now some people don't like to think about clean kills in relation to SD. However once I deploy my firearm I want the threat stopped therefore I train for double taps on 6 inch steel plates while moving.. I also use USPSA targets and work from behind cover around obstructions and from the ground. I run until my heart rate is up and then shoot. All of these things are easy to do and produce a far better chance that if my time comes I will be ready to deal with it.

    We are told not to (shoot to kill but rather shoot to stop) I agree with the nomenclature... but if a stop means the perp is dead so be it... I am not going to shoot once and see if the perp is done ...no I am going to dump at least 4 center of mass while changing position to make myself less of a target. Then if the perp is still a threat 4 more and so on.

    No handgun bullet is the magic answer but I prefer one that will do the most damage in the calibers I choose to carry.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Belleville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    126

    Post imported post

    I'm a firm believer in bonded core HPs for SD. Never shot anyone so I rely on agencies testing and case experience reports. I currently pack .40 180 gr WIN PDX1s. FBI testing shows good terminal energy, great expansion, great penetration and near 100% weight retention. The 165s have even more terminal energy, due to higher velocity.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    144

    Post imported post

    I'm not disputing anything you're saying ... bottom line ... all else being equal, a quality JHP is going to be a better stopper than a FMJ round in the same caliber.

    My concern is for the "typical OCer or CPL" who will shoot hundreds of rounds of Blazer Brass on Winchester White Box FMJ at the range when practicing (because it's cheap). Then ... loads his carry pistol with some fancy hollow point round ... which he's put all of one box of 20 through his defensive firearm (with 1 or 2 jams). Why? Well ... only one box of 20 because those fancy hollow points are expensive ... and why the fancy hollow points in the first place ... because someone convinced him that FMJ won't stop an arthritic 90-year-old grandmother while JHP rounds are magic and will drop a charging bull elephant!

    Obviously I'm joking and exaggerating the last part ... but this kind of "mentality" DOES occur quite a bit.

    autosurgeon wrote:
    Well here is another point for ya...

    JHP tend to lose more energy when going through obstructions therefore not being as apt to kill someone downrange...

    However my final point is that a good JHP or EFMJ that works correctly is far more likely to get you a stop if you get those direct hits then a round that does not expand...

    And here is why... An expanded round is more likely to deviate from the path of entry therefor doing more damage than a round that goes straight through. Anyone that hunts knows that a SP or HP does more damage and is far more likely to produce a clean kill.

    Now some people don't like to think about clean kills in relation to SD. However once I deploy my firearm I want the threat stopped therefore I train for double taps on 6 inch steel plates while moving.. I also use USPSA targets and work from behind cover around obstructions and from the ground. I run until my heart rate is up and then shoot. All of these things are easy to do and produce a far better chance that if my time comes I will be ready to deal with it.

    We are told not to (shoot to kill but rather shoot to stop) I agree with the nomenclature... but if a stop means the perp is dead so be it... I am not going to shoot once and see if the perp is done ...no I am going to dump at least 4 center of mass while changing position to make myself less of a target. Then if the perp is still a threat 4 more and so on.

    No handgun bullet is the magic answer but I prefer one that will do the most damage in the calibers I choose to carry.

  21. #21
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Thats why I buy from here http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...low-point-ammo

    That is an example of the kind of top notch JHP you can buy... and in 50 rd boxes for the same or lower price than the 20rd boxes in your fav gun shop..
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  22. #22
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    I also handload practice rounds in the same grain and similar powder charge to my defense loads.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    144

    Post imported post

    Wow! That's quite a link ... thanks!

    Putting more JHP ammo through my new Taurus PT1911 is something I'd very much like to do.

    So far I've put about 350 rounds for various FMJ ball ammo, 50 rounds of FMJ cone ammo, and 30 or so rounds of JHP through it ... no failures of any kind ... which I'm thrilled about. However, since I have more faith in 100% (/350) than 100% (/30) I still keep it loaded with "ball" when carrying it.

    If I can cycle 100 or 200 JHPs through it, and not experience a failure, I'll likely switch.

    autosurgeon wrote:
    Thats why I buy from here http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...low-point-ammo

    That is an example of the kind of top notch JHP you can buy... and in 50 rd boxes for the same or lower price than the 20rd boxes in your fav gun shop..

  24. #24
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Keep an eye on that site... my brother got a bunch of Federal expanding full metal jacket... the best of both worlds! And in .45 too!

    It comes and goes... on there so you should be able to get some if you want it.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  25. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    Icarry the Winchester PDX1 165 grain bonded .40 S&W. As my primary rounds. Typically 2, 12rd mags, 1 in the hole, and I carry a 9 round mag full metal jackets. Situations change, so you should give yourself some choices.

    I havent had any feeding problems with these rounds.

    I really wish I could shoot more, but the facts are that bullets cost money that I dont have. I love to shoot, I would every day if I could.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •