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Thread: Need Help w/Response to Kent Co Parks.

  1. #1
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    This is the following exachange that we have had.


    Sevenplusone...



    You can email me or call at 336-3696



    Roger Sabine, Director
    Mr. Sabine,

    Thank you very much for responding to me. I do appreciate it.

    I'm a Kent County resident and frequent user of several of the parks. My wife and I absolutely love having such nice places to take our dog for a walk and to get out and get some fresh air. Anybody who is a worker at any of your facilities should be proud of them. We are probably at Walhfield at least 3-4 times a week as it is just a couple miles from our home and often frequent Dwight Lydell and Townsend parks for picnics throughout the summer. I have never been let down by the cleanliness and quality of these places.

    Due to all of the above reasons I want to make sure I understand one of the rules/ordinances listed on the Kent County website. Specifically, Section 25a and 25b. The way I understand it when I read it is that all firearms laws will be enforced per the state law and all other weapons are banned. Is this correct? I am a legal firearms owner and often carry a personal sidearm concealed or openly which is well within the laws of this state. I just want to make sure there would be no confusion about this fact if I'm within the park. Approximately a year ago while at Dwight Lydell Park I was confronted, albeit politely, by a Kent County Parks employee who happened to notice my sidearm as I had removed my jacket. He asked me to leave the park. We had a brief conversation and I left as I was on my way out anyway. A handshake was shared by both parties as we left. At the time I was not as informed about the laws as I am now. I just wanted to be sure I would not be asked to leave in the same way again as I do not believe I was in violation of any enforceable rules or ordinances, nor was I causing any trouble or any sort of disturbance. I am not worried about what happened at that time, if anything I was impressed with how polite the employee was. I just want clarification going forward.

    I appreciate your concern in this manner and appreciate any reply.

    Thank You,

    Sevenplusone
    Mr. sevenplusone,



    I talked to John, the park manager at Dwight Lydell. He remembers speaking to you last year. I am glad to hear that everyone agrees that everyone was cordial.



    Historically, Kent County Park rules did not permit firearms of any kind on park property. When the rules became an ordinance in 2004, the rule changed to better reflect state and federal law. So yes, it is legal to carry weapons in the parks.



    I really don't see where Lydell, Wahlfield, Townsend or any Kent County Park has any hint of "the need to carry". You should know that it was a park patron that saw your weapon and contacted the park manager last year. It may be legal, but what kind of messagewere you sending to other park visitors? Probably not the family friendly atmosphere that youexpect....and enjoy.



    Roger Sabine

    The following is what I have typed up and am considering sending to him. Advice on wording etc. is welcome. I feel I might be coming on a little strong at the end.
    Mr. Sabine,

    I appreciate the clarification on the ordinance.

    I have made the conscious decision to take steps toward protecting myself and my family. People become victims of violent crimes regardless of where they are or how safe they feel. I hope to never be put in a position where I have to protect myself or my family, but I am prepared to do so. Responsible gun owners should be the least of the worries of Kent County Parks. As stated in my last email, I have never caused any sort of trouble or disturbance while in a Kent County Park and have absolutely no intention of doing so. I apologize that another patron took issue with the manner in which I was carrying my sidearm, but I was doing nothing wrong legally or otherwise. Please refrain from lecturing me on messages you believe I am sending. I contacted you with the intention of getting clarification and I believe that part is resolved.

    Thank You,

    sevenplusone

  2. #2
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Honestly, you could probably phrase it slightly differently as to not be so confrontational, but at this point, screw him. He was pretty confrontational with his remarks.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Excellent well though out and clearly expressed letters ...

    But ya know what? I would NOT apologize because some ninny got his/her panties in a wad and complained about your open carry!

    Mr. Sabine was using guilt to intimidate you into not open carrying again with his comments about what message your open carry is sending to other park visitors... and trying to demean you with references to a family friendly atmosphere... as if YOU are the bad guy making the park a scary place.

    And I actually like the part where you told him to refrain from lecturing you.... put him in his place. And nothing pisses off a wannabe tyrant than being put in his place.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    Honestly, you could probably phrase it slightly differently as to not be so confrontational, but at this point, screw him. He was pretty confrontational with his remarks.
    That was my thing, I was seeking clarification, not confrontation.

  5. #5
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Dear *******,

    Thanks for your clarification on park rules/laws. As to your opinion on my carrying, cram it. Thanks!

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the help guys. Here's what I went with.


    Mr. Sabine,

    I appreciate the clarification on the ordinance.

    I have made the conscious decision to take steps toward protecting myself and my family. People become victims of violent crimes regardless of where they are or how safe they feel. I hope to never be put in a position where I have to protect myself or my family, but I am prepared to do so. Responsible gun owners should be the least of the worries of Kent County Parks. As stated in my last email, I have never caused any sort of trouble or disturbance while in a Kent County Park and have absolutely no intention of doing so. Please refrain from lecturing me on messages you believe I am sending. I contacted you with the intention of getting clarification and rather than confrontation and I believe we have resolved as much.

    sevenplusone

  7. #7
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    sevenplusone wrote:
    Thanks for the help guys. Here's what I went with.


    Mr. Sabine,

    I appreciate the clarification on the ordinance.

    I have made the conscious decision to take steps toward protecting myself and my family. People become victims of violent crimes regardless of where they are or how safe they feel. I hope to never be put in a position where I have to protect myself or my family, but I am prepared to do so. Responsible gun owners should be the least of the worries of Kent County Parks. As stated in my last email, I have never caused any sort of trouble or disturbance while in a Kent County Park and have absolutely no intention of doing so. Please refrain from lecturing me on messages you believe I am sending. I contacted you with the intention of getting clarification and rather than confrontation and I believe we have resolved as much.

    sevenplusone
    Looks exceptionally good to me!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  8. #8
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Adding to the above suggestions, I would moderate the message to be a bit less strong and simply point out to Mr. Sabine that his opinions are not supported by reality in two ways:

    • A review of crime statistics indicates Kent County Parks do not magically repel criminals, and the "need to carry" is always 0% until it is 100%. Like a fire extinguisher, it is always better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
    • Tens of thousands of hours of open carry annually by hundreds of people in Michigan has proven that the public at large has no issue with those who open carry. If the park patron who called about open carry follows the rule rather than the exception, the patron was not alarmed and was probably merely calling to confirm the legality of something the patron was unfamiliar with.

    It is always best to whack speculation and "what-if" with the simple facts of reality. Showing someone that reality does not match their theory always beats trying to philosophically debate someone's theory.

    Of course, you can always invite everyone for an OC get-together at one of the parks, and invite Mr. Sabine to see what DOESN'T happen!

    Good luck!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    DanM wrote:
    Adding to the above suggestions, I would moderate the message to be a bit less strong and simply point out to Mr. Sabine that his opinions are not supported by reality in two ways:

    • A review of crime statistics indicates Kent County Parks do not magically repel criminals, and the "need to carry" is always 0% until it is 100%. Like a fire extinguisher, it is always better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
    • Tens of thousands of hours of open carry annually by hundreds of people in Michigan has proven that the public at large has no issue with those who open carry. If the park patron who called about open carry follows the rule rather than the exception, the patron was not alarmed and was probably merely calling to confirm the legality of something the patron was unfamiliar with.
    It is always best to whack speculation and "what-if" with the simple facts of reality. Showing someone that reality does not match their theory always beats trying to philosophically debate someone's theory.

    Of course, you can always invite everyone for an OC get-together at one of the parks, and invite Mr. Sabine to see what DOESN'T happen!

    Good luck!
    this is post number 1000 for you congrats!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  10. #10
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    The director has not responded to my last email.

    If and when there is an OC event in a Kent County park this summer I'll be sure to invite him.

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