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Thread: a knife beats a gun

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    Wow. He beat a dummy to the draw!

    Wow. He hit a dummy who wasn't moving!

    Wow. He killed a dummy with one shot! Good thing. He only had one.

    The really amazing thing was that the dummy's gun was still in the holster. The dummy didn't even start to get it drawn.

    I am unimpressed with this video. Someone can hit a big, still target with a big knife at 20 feet.

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    The best part is

    "Here's his gun. Still in his holster."

    LOL!

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    what a retard

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    yeah.............................................. ......................right.

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    HUH?????
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    Regular Member AZkopper's Avatar
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    Not sure what he's trying to prove? Perhaps that he's faster than a dummy?

    On a serious note, it does highlight the 21 foot rule. If a guy has a knife and is within 21 feet of you, you're dead before you can react. Even if you are able to see, react, draw, aim and heart shoot him, adrenalin will get him there to stab you before he dies.

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    AZkopper wrote:
    Not sure what he's trying to prove? Perhaps that he's faster than a dummy?

    On a serious note, it does highlight the 21 foot rule. If a guy has a knife and is within 21 feet of you, you're dead before you can react. Even if you are able to see, react, draw, aim and heart shoot him, adrenalin will get him there to stab you before he dies.
    Sorry. I don't buy it. He had to draw his weapon and "fire" it, just like a guy with a gun. Just like a guy with a gun, he has to be accurate in hitting a possibly moving target who is likely trying to shoot back. Just like a guy with a gun, there is a chance that even a hit will not stop his opponent.

    The big problem: The guy with a knife has one shot. The guy with the gun has 6 or 8 or 10 or 14...

    I'll take the gun over the knife.

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    What is the point? I could have taken that dummy out with my bare hands. So what?

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    I'm still laughing at the part where he said "Here's his gun. Still in his holster." like he was suppose to draw. LOL. I'm pretty sure the guy was only half serious.

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    buster81 wrote:
    What is the point? I could have taken that dummy out with my bare hands. So what?
    I got into a staring contest with the dummy.

    The dummy won.

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    The guy with the knife was NOT acting in Self Defense. He MURDERED the guy with the gun in cold blood--because the guy with the gun had his gun STILL IN THE HOLSTER!!!

    No court would excuse a murder by throwing knife as self defense if the victim's firearm as holstered...

    The ONLY way this would be a valid SD situation would be if the gun was out of the holster and pointed at the knife guy--in which case, the knife guy MIGHT be able to hit him, but the gun guy would be able to get off at least 2 or three rounds in the time it took to throw the knife...

    EPIC FAIL...

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    <snip>
    EPIC FAIL...
    it's U8Dust ... did anyone expect less ?
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    Forget the video & lets look at some real observations.

    In a lot of situations a knife will beat a gun. Knife wounds are devastating, if you have any doubt google Contact Edged Weapons pdf and take a look for yourself. (very graphic)

    Wounds even to areas that most consider non life threatening when cut, can become life threatening.

    Knives are very concealable, anyone can pull a knife VERY quickly to thrust or slash.

    They are silent, never jam, will not hit innocent bystanders.

    Also, training with a knife is not required to mess someone up (training helps, but not needed). I have seen plenty of crime shows where someone has knifed someone to death & not recieved so much as a scratch in the process.

    Also, look at the Tuller drill, 21ft in a couple seconds. Thats not much time to draw & fire if you see someone coming at you with a knife from that distance.

    So, does a knife beat a gun? It depends, but it is very unwise to dismiss edged weapons because you think a gun is superior.

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    Which one is the dummy in the video?
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    rottman43055 wrote:
    Forget the video & lets look at some real observations.[/size]

    In a lot of situations a knife will beat a gun. Knife wounds are devastating, if you have any doubt google Contact Edged Weapons pdf and take a look for yourself. (very graphic)

    Wounds even to areas that most consider non life threatening when cut, can become life threatening.

    Knives are very concealable, anyone can pull a knife VERY quickly to thrust or slash.

    They are silent, never jam, will not hit innocent bystanders.

    Also, training with a knife is not required to mess someone up (training helps, but not needed). I have seen plenty of crime shows where someone has knifed someone to death & not recieved so much as a scratch in the process.

    Also, look at the Tuller drill, 21ft in a couple seconds. Thats not much time to draw & fire if you see someone coming at you with a knife from that distance.

    So, does a knife beat a gun? It depends, but it is very unwise to dismiss edged weapons because you think a gun is superior.
    Of course knives are dangerous. If someone comes at me with a knife, I'm drawing and shooting. Unlike the dummy (the one that doesn't move) I'm going to move, look for cover or at least give the knife guy a smaller profile. Sure, a knife can beat a gun. If I'm facing North and not paying attention someone can sneak up from the South and hurt me. For defense, is a knife the best choice? Hell no.

    "knife wounds are devastating" - No doubt, but so are gunshot wounds. Knives as ranged weapons are one shot, and you do have time to duck or at least get your vitals out of the way. You can't duck a gunshot. In melee range a knife could arguably have an advantage.

    "knives are very concealable" - Depends on the knife. The knife in the video looks uncomfortable to conceal. In any case, concealing serious gun power isn't much of an issue.

    "They are silent" - Not an issue for self defense.

    "never jam" - A good point, but other issues outweigh this factor. This is mitigated by using a gun that you know, practice with, know the ammo inside and out, fed in 1000s of rounds, etc.

    "will not hit innocent bystanders" - An absolute statement that isn't necessarily true. How many innocent bystanders have been hit by competent shooters trying to hit a bad guy? I don't know, but intuitively I think that's got to be an extremely small number.

    "Also, training with a knife is not required to mess someone up" - Point and pull a trigger requires training? I disagree here, it takes much more training to use a knife in combat than a gun. Either method should have (not requires) lots and lots of practice.

    "I have seen plenty of crime shows" - Mmmm, ok.

    "Also, look at the Tuller drill, 21ft in a couple seconds. Thats not much time to draw & fire if you see someone coming at you with a knife from that distance." - Certainly true, but that implies the guy with the knife is the aggressor (BAD GUY). As a defensive weapon, the knife isn't going to take longer to draw than a handgun. If the other guy has a gun, already drawn, well whether you have a knife or handgun you have to hope he misses the first shot. If you have a knife, and you're not in close quarters, you have to throw it and the knife is gone. If you have a gun, well you just squeeze that trigger. Miss? Squeeze again.

    No thanks, I'll stick to the handgun. But..nothing says you can't carry both.

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    Damn Right post!! very well said!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

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    10A

    I wasn't saying that a knife is better than a gun, but I have read a lot of knife vs gun debates & feel many people understimate a knife. Watch any Cold Steel video on youtube lol..

    While I will say a gun is better, I really feel that with either /or, it depends on who's hands it is in.

    So actually gun vs knife is a misleading question..

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    Regular Member Old Grump's Avatar
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    U8Dust, is there a point to this post? The dummy couldn't duck, dodge or get behind cover, a real man could. The real dummy threw his weapon away and the other man has a gun. Not to smart to me but what do I know? I'm just a simple country boy who lives in the woods.
    Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAF and CCRKBA

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    If a person wanted to see more about the Tueller drill and determine how fast they could draw and shoot accurately, there is a test.

    1: Shooter to face target (should be approximately 5-8 feet from shooter)

    2: Attacker to take starting position 21 feet away at a 90 degree angle to the shooter. There should be a "melee distance" line drawn in a 3-4 foot area around the shooter.

    3: Shooter cannot draw until the attacker starts moving towards him

    4: Attacker attacks, running behind the shooter for obvious safety reasons, as the shooter draws and engages his target. Attacker should not tag or touch the shooter, merely get to the melee line.

    5: I was fortunate to get 1 shot off before the "attacker" crossed the melee distance line. I didn't hit my target (a paper small plate). I also had no time to see my sights.
    I've tried this many times, and failed every time.

    Conclusion: I need more practice speed drawing and point shooting.

    Visual aid:

    Target


    ^
    |
    |
    Attacker \ | Shooter
    -----> |
    | melee line


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    If I am ever in a situation where I am engaging one attacker, while another attacker is approaching me from a 90-degree direction, I'll think of this test.

    This test completely ignores the fact that the shooter will be reacting to the actions of the person charging him. Since the attacker has to move his whole body in a predictable way (toward the shooter) and since the shooter is relatively free to choose his motion (only the bullet need move toward the attacker), the shooter is not restricted to only drawing and firing in time to avoid being stabbed by the attacker.

    A simple move to one side or the other, timed in such a was as the attacker's momentum will prevent him from following, will buy additional time to draw and fire. There are, of course, no guarantees, but I'd rather have the gun in that situation.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    9_9

    The point of the test is to establish a bare minimum line at which a potential attacker is "to close for comfort". A variant I have seen is to start back to back with the 'attacker's' hand on the shooter's shoulder. The drill starts as soon as the attacker starts running, and the attacker must stop running when he hears the first (or sometimes second or third shot).

    The distance ran and the time it took are measured to give an idea of how far away an attacker should be stopped under ideal circumstances. If the attacker is dodging and weaving it would increase the difficulty of hitting him and would support the assertion that 21' (or however far for you) is a reasonable danger zone and you would be unwise to let a potential attacker get within that zone.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    Knives don't have just one shot, they actually "never" run out of ammo. At least not in a single confrontation. I didn't watch the video, but if anyone is discounting the knife or believes that they can beat it on the draw, they need to do some serious research. Carrying a weapon for self-defense is worthless if you haven't got the proper mindset to defend yourself. Another interesting point about the Tueller drill is that most people report being unaware that there was a knife involved in the attack. Unless the aggressor "brandishes" the knife beforehand, many assume that they are simply being hit, not stabbed.

    Stay alert, stay informed.

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    Regardless of intent, the test is flawed. It provides a number that is valid in a narrow set of circumstances that is unlikely to occur in reality. I might as well determine the height at which I need to detect a safe dropped from an airplane in order to safely step out of the way. Even if I know this number, what good does it do me, unless I am looking up at appropriate intervals.

    We all already know that situational awareness increases the chance of a good outcome in the event of a sudden attack. It does not guarantee anything.

    If I detect someone charging me, from out of the blue, from 21' (or 20' or 22' or whatever), I am going to evade with a perpendicular movement while drawing and proceed from there.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    I choose to ignore your preposterous example. Besides, everyone knows not to look up. That's how the government satellites identify you. :P :quirky

    Situational Awareness has to have some basis in experience or training for you to be able to quickly and properly assess a situation. How do you measure your comfort zone? How close does a suspicious person have to be to be too close?

    The drill isn't meant to train you to take out someone charging at you from 21'. The drill is meant to show you that anyone within 21' can become a threat to your life, likely faster than the average person can react. I don't know how I can explain that any clearer to you, eye.

    Your situational awareness should be in hyperdrive when people are in your reaction speed radius. Do you disagree?
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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