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Thread: Thug wandering intersection Charlotte NC

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    Was travelling in Charlotte, NC off Morehead St - not a particularly bad neighborhood but not great. As I came up to a three way intersection there was a dude in a hoodie wandering up to each car stopped at the light and tapping on the drivers side window. He was going from car to car and obviously getting rebuffed.

    As I pulled up to the end of the line in the intersection I left about 30 feet between the next car and mine to give me options, and reached over to the glovebox where I keep a Smith M&P 9. I clipped the holster onto the passenger seatbelt and waited.

    The dude came up to my window, both hands visible but holding something small in the fingers of his left hand, that I couldnt see. As he approached the car I held up my hand in a "no" sign, he kept approaching, wanting me to roll down the window

    As he got to the window he started talking at me but it was unintelligible. I just kept my head facing forward but watched him closely behind my sunglasses. He made no bad moves but after his third attempt without leaving I dropped my right hand towards the M&P. He said something loudly and left

    Not a big deal but if he had drawn a weapon I had mentally prepared to fire through my closed drivers side window.

    ______

    Edited to add the following detail after a number of questions laterin this thread:

    1.)When I dropped myhand to the M&P I never touched it or motioned to it, but just dropped my handto a position next to it on the passenger seat bolster.

    2.) I posted this not because I had to defend myself, but because its an instance where legal, open carry in a car in North Carolina was a deterrent. I thought that it would be of interest to the forum.

    3.) I never feared for my life but wason a high alert. You'll have to trust my perception that this wasn't a normal beggar. Newer clothing, very nice sneakers, a young dude with attitude intentionally talking some gibberish so I would open the window maybe to hear him better.

    In retrospect do I think he wasjust wanting help, or maybe half crazy? Maybe.Maybe50-60% Theres also a percentage chance that the object in his left hand was a razor blade and if I opened the window he'd have slashed at my arms or face. Or grabbedmy head and tried to tear me out of the car. Or pulled a gun and said "get the F___ outta your car MoF----".

    Either way,it became a non incident. I had options open, and theOCed handgun was a definate deterrent from whatever he was selling.






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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    I think this fits the discription of the title:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2VXqCdL6_s

    Shows just how pathetic people are.

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    Beliveau wrote:
    As he got to the window he started talking at me but it was unintelligible. I just kept my head facing forward but watched him closely behind my sunglasses. He made no bad moves but after his third attempt without leaving I dropped my right hand towards the M&P. He said something loudly and left

    Not a big deal but if he had drawn a weapon I had mentally prepared to fire through my driver's window.
    You "dropped" your "right hand towards the M&P?"

    Exactly what does that mean? Did you touch or grab the gun?

    What did you actually do?

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    Beliveau: There is no need to submit to such cross-examination. Unless you want to, of course.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    Beliveau: There is no need to submit to such cross-examination. Unless you want to, of course.
    It's not a cross-examination, E95. It's just to clarify what Beliveau actually did.

    Did he motion to the gun? Point to it? Grab the handle?

    What he actually did will determine whether he did OK in the encounter with the "thug."

    E95, what do you think about Beliveau's actions as described? Good-bad--what's your assessment?

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    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Beliveau: There is no need to submit to such cross-examination. Unless you want to, of course.
    It's not a cross-examination, E95. It's just to clarify what Beliveau actually did.

    Did he motion to the gun? Point to it? Grab the handle?

    What he actually did will determine whether he did OK in the encounter with the "thug."

    E95, what do you think about Beliveau's actions as described? Good-bad--what's your assessment?
    hNt: The way you asked came across, IMO, as a cross-examination. This it not the first time you have asked questions in such a way.

    Anyway, I won't be answering your questions.

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    Beliveau wrote:
    SNIP As he got to the window he started talking at me but it was unintelligible. I just kept my head facing forward but watched him closely behind my sunglasses. He made no bad moves but after his third attempt without leaving I dropped my right hand towards the M&P. He said something loudly and left
    May I suggest for consideration handling it another way.

    All it would take is for the panhandler(?)to noteBeliveau's license plate number and call the police, andBeliveau ends up with a charge for menacing, brandishing, or whatever is NC's version.

    By Beliveau's own statement, the guy "made no bad moves." Yet,Beliveau solved the uncomfortable situation by calling attention to the availability of deadly force.

    We have tobe more saavy than that.

    I would also suggest never resorting to the gun, even displaying or calling attention to it, unless really, really necessary. And, if you do, make sure you are the first one to call the police and report the assault. Do not let a repelledbad guy call the police first. According tocop reports on this forum, whoever calls the police first is generally treated as the victim.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Beliveau wrote:
    SNIP As he got to the window he started talking at me but it was unintelligible. I just kept my head facing forward but watched him closely behind my sunglasses. He made no bad moves but after his third attempt without leaving I dropped my right hand towards the M&P. He said something loudly and left
    May I suggest for consideration handling it another way.

    All it would take is for the panhandler(?)to noteBeliveau's license plate number and call the police, andBeliveau ends up with a charge for menacing, brandishing, or whatever is NC's version.

    By Beliveau's own statement, the guy "made no bad moves." Yet,Beliveau solved the uncomfortable situation by calling attention to the availability of deadly force.

    We have tobe more saavy than that.

    I would also suggest never resorting to the gun, even displaying or calling attention to it, unless really, really necessary. And, if you do, make sure you are the first one to call the police and report the assault. Do not let a repelledbad guy call the police first. According tocop reports on this forum, whoever calls the police first is generally treated as the victim.
    Good points by Citizen.

    Going to the ole pistola first should be a considered judicious choice, not a casual knee-jerk reaction.

    As OP pointed out, he smartly left himself some room to maneuver out of the situation if he wanted to.

    He was safely ensconced in a vehicle that protected him from an attack by, say, open hand. Further, the "thug" .... wait, why is he a "thug" ...he sounds like just a begger. In fact, he acted repeatedly like a beggar...

    Anyway, this "thug" didn't do ANYTHING to indicate he was a threat. And the OP, could, in the face of some surprise attack by the "thug," step on the gas and get the heck outta there!

    We need to learn a little more about the actual display of the gun that Beliveau made before we can properly assess how he did in his interaction with the begga...uh, I mean, "thug."

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    eye95 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Beliveau: There is no need to submit to such cross-examination. Unless you want to, of course.
    It's not a cross-examination, E95. It's just to clarify what Beliveau actually did.

    Did he motion to the gun? Point to it? Grab the handle?

    What he actually did will determine whether he did OK in the encounter with the "thug."

    E95, what do you think about Beliveau's actions as described? Good-bad--what's your assessment?
    hNt: The way you asked came across, IMO, as a cross-examination. This it not the first time you have asked questions in such a way.

    Anyway, I won't be answering your questions.
    You don't seem to be interested in learning anything from the OP's gun event, E95.



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    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Beliveau: There is no need to submit to such cross-examination. Unless you want to, of course.
    It's not a cross-examination, E95. It's just to clarify what Beliveau actually did.

    Did he motion to the gun? Point to it? Grab the handle?

    What he actually did will determine whether he did OK in the encounter with the "thug."

    E95, what do you think about Beliveau's actions as described? Good-bad--what's your assessment?
    hNt: The way you asked came across, IMO, as a cross-examination. This it not the first time you have asked questions in such a way.

    Anyway, I won't be answering your questions.
    You don't seem to be interested in learning anything from the OP's gun event, E95.
    No, hAk, I am not interested in talking to you. Moving on.

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    HankT wrote:
    Beliveau wrote:
    As he got to the window he started talking at me but it was unintelligible. I just kept my head facing forward but watched him closely behind my sunglasses. He made no bad moves but after his third attempt without leaving I dropped my right hand towards the M&P. He said something loudly and left

    Not a big deal but if he had drawn a weapon I had mentally prepared to fire through my driver's window.
    You "dropped" your "right hand towards the M&P?"

    Exactly what does that mean? Did you touch or grab the gun?

    What did you actually do?
    Hank you quoted the OP yourself, yet you still question exactly what you read.. the OP didn't say he unholstered/disengaged the safety/pointed a weapon....etc. he simply said he dropped his hand towards the M&P.. A beggar can see a playboy mag. in the front seat, that doesn't mean he can accuse you of sexual suggestion..A beggar in a busy intersection can also slip his foot under your tire and accuse you of hit and run, thats a chance you take in this situation..

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    Hi guys, sorry have been away a while. To clarify - when I wrote that I dropped my hand toward the M&P itwas really just that:

    I was in the drivers seat, left hand on the wheel and my right up, palm towards the guy motioning casually in a "stop / no thanks " motion.

    When I say that I dropped my hand, I did just that - dropped it to the left side passenger seat bolster and rested it there, right next to the M&P. It was clipped to the seat belt right where the straps come together at the fitting on the left side of the seat. My intention was to bring his attention to it without touching it.

    I would not have pulled my weapon unless he hadpulled a handgun...because that's the only thing that could get to me inside the car.In that caseI could have responded really quickly. In the end I think he left the situation faster than normal because he saw that I was armed, and I definately had more options if he was a carjacker (we've had plenty of that around here).

    His actions: I say he was a thug because he didnt behave like a normal beggar. He was aggressive and was seemingly trying to get people to open their windows, and was hiding something in his left hand. Definately not a handgun but could have been a small blade. I could be wrong.

    Thanks for the dialogue lads, Im always willing to learn from those wiser than me -

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    Beliveau wrote:
    Hi guys, sorry have been away a while. To clarify - when I wrote that I dropped my hand toward the M&P itwas really just that:

    I was in the drivers seat, left hand on the wheel and my right up, palm towards the guy motioning casually in a "stop / no thanks " motion.

    When I say that I dropped my hand, I did just that - dropped it to the left side passenger seat bolster and rested it there, right next to the M&P. It was clipped to the seat belt right where the straps come together at the fitting on the left side of the seat. My intention was to bring his attention to it without touching it.

    I would not have pulled my weapon unless he hadpulled a handgun...because that's the only thing that could get to me inside the car.In that caseI could have responded really quickly. In the end I think he left the situation faster than normal because he saw that I was armed, and I definately had more options if he was a carjacker (we've had plenty of that around here).

    His actions: I say he was a thug because he didnt behave like a normal beggar. He was aggressive and was seemingly trying to get people to open their windows, and was hiding something in his left hand. Definately not a handgun but could have been a small blade. I could be wrong.

    Thanks for the dialogue lads, Im always willing to learn from those wiser than me -
    How was he dressed? How many cars was he rebuffed by before he got to yours?

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    HankT, I'm just wondering what exactly is your position on the 2nd Amendment? And then you ask the question, How was the man dressed? As it stated in the first sentence he was in a hoodie. Geez, I'm not the brightest bulb in the box but I can read.
    Exactly what is it a State researcher does? Sounds to me like one of those "Deputy advisor to the Chief of staff of sittin' by the door" BTF off. The man told a simple story, it's his story and he's stickin to it.

    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    KansasMustang wrote:
    HankT, I'm just wondering what exactly is your position on the 2nd Amendment?
    I'm wondering, too, if it is OK in NC to openly(?) carry a gun in the car clipped to a passenger seat belt/bolster as described by OP:



    Beliveau wrote:
    When I say that I dropped my hand, I did just that - dropped it to the left side passenger seat bolster and rested it there, right next to the M&P. It was clipped to the seat belt right where the straps come together at the fitting on the left side of the seat. My intention was to bring his attention to it without touching it.

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    HankT wrote:
    KansasMustang wrote:
    HankT, I'm just wondering what exactly is your position on the 2nd Amendment?
    I'm wondering, too, if it is OK in NC to openly(?) carry a gun in the car clipped to a passenger seat belt/bolster as described by OP:



    Beliveau wrote:
    When I say that I dropped my hand, I did just that - dropped it to the left side passenger seat bolster and rested it there, right next to the M&P. It was clipped to the seat belt right where the straps come together at the fitting on the left side of the seat. My intention was to bring his attention to it without touching it.
    And as I asked before, and you evaded my primary question, what exactly does a state researcher do?
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    It may be referring to this:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum3/7124.html

    Which would be a much more useful pursuit than haranguing members into making admissions of possibly illegal acts, and then pointing them out for all to see.

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    Well In my neck of the woods that would be a legal and prudent thing to do. At least here it is not normal for someone to be approaching cars that are stopped for a traffic control device and one would logically think that the person was up to no good.

    The beggars on the streets medians here do not tap on windows or approach vehicles as that would probably lead to some uncomfortable situations for them as my first thought would be they are about to commit some crime.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    He was dressed in, as I recall, jeans and a hoodie (hood up). I saw him at two different cars as I approached the intersection and pulled up - then he came to me (next, and last, in line).

    In NC it is absolutely legal to open carry in the car as long as it is visible to the officer. With a CCW you can conceal of course.

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    Beliveau wrote:
    He was dressed in, as I recall, jeans and a hoodie (hood up). I saw him at two different cars as I approached the intersection and pulled up - then he came to me (next, and last, in line).

    In NC it is absolutely legal to open carry in the car as long as it is visible to the officer. With a CCW you can conceal of course.
    OK. I think you did OK. A little gun-biased in handling the begging thug. But legal.

    Luckily, the guy was not a real threat. He was just wanting a handout.

    I think you were smart in leaving the 30 feet of room before stopping. That leaves hitting the accelerator as an option to deal with a real threat. Shooting a firearm from inside a car with the window down is no picnic. Possibly ineffective, too, with a 9mm.

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    Thanks. I don't think he was a real threat either, with my window closed.

    I don't think he was a normal beggar though. He was talking gibberish, just enough to make it so that you didn't understand him and would roll your window down. I've got 20 years in a career where you have to size up people quickly and read body language, so Im pretty sure of my perception.

    Another clue - he had on pretty new clothing and sneakers, a bit too sharply dressed to be down and out.

    In what way do you feel I was too gun biased? I would have gone to the gun if necessary (i.e. if he produced one), but I didn't brandish it.

    Perhaps for debate - had I dropped my hand to the grip of the gun but left it holstered, that would technically not be brandishing I don't believe. Still, I didn't touch it.

    I was happy that I thought of leaving space as well.

    If he had produced and aimed a weapon, and if I had no other escape,I would have fired through my closed window if necessary. A 9 will definately carry enough energy to be effective doing so, especially at 3 feet away. Would not be good for the hearing, but if your life is threatened that's the least bad option.

    Good dialogue lads, always open to learn.

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    Beliveau wrote:
    Was travelling in Charlotte, NC off Morehead St - not a particularly bad neighborhood but not great. As I came up to a three way intersection there was a dude in a hoodie wandering up to each car stopped at the light and tapping on the drivers side window. He was going from car to car and obviously getting rebuffed.

    As I pulled up to the end of the line in the intersection I left about 30 feet between the next car and mine to give me options, and reached over to the glovebox where I keep a Smith M&P 9. I clipped the holster onto the passenger seatbelt and waited.

    The dude came up to my window, both hands visible but holding something small in the fingers of his left hand, that I couldnt see. As he approached the car I held up my hand in a "no" sign, he kept approaching, wanting me to roll down the window

    As he got to the window he started talking at me but it was unintelligible. I just kept my head facing forward but watched him closely behind my sunglasses. He made no bad moves but after his third attempt without leaving I dropped my right hand towards the M&P. He said something loudly and left

    Not a big deal but if he had drawn a weapon I had mentally prepared to fire through my driver's window.



    I think you could have handled it better by leaving the gun out of it unless it escalated. You mention that he was going "from car to car", and "made no bad moves". What he said was unintelligible so you cannot affirm any threat.

    I might be missing something but you may have overreacted. Was there something you observed in his interactions with other cars that caused you concern or was it just that he was slow to move on. He could have been asking for help for all you know since what he was saying was unintelligible. All I am saying is that a gun should be used to deal with threats not nuissances.

    I am not criticizing you for being prepared but you elude to the fact that the gun was visible to the individual. I think you would have been better served to have it in hand but not visible in case it was needed. And unless you really felt threatened you should have left it out of it altogether. Or if you wanted it visible to have it so but not reach for it unless you felt threatened. BY your post you do not indicate you felt threatened, but were just annoyed and unsure of what was in a visible hand. You kept your window rolled up which is good.

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    I'm amazed at how many on here think you can tell a cop to bug off! Have i committed a crime? Whats your probable cause? Am I being detained? May I go now?

    Seems as though the respect for an officer in Uniform is Nill for the most part, But you think you have to kiss the ass of a Punk/thug/beggar unsolicited to your immidiate space and probable safety zone for fear of offending him.. B.S !I say !!



    #1. would be Politely No Thanks and/or the internationally understood "HALT" hand gesture that the OP said he employed.

    #2. Would be with a louder voice Back the FU&$ off and get out of my space .

    #3. Would be engaging 911 and the handgun simotaniously.. because the next vehicle pulling up to the traffic signal after i leave could be my Teenage daughter, Mom , or Grandmother.. Just a little too much for my conscience after pulling away and rehashing all the what iff's..

    I think the original poster was a lot kinder than i would have been. and believe it of not the scumbag/bum/beggar/thug walked away unscathed to try his ploy on most likely a more unsuspecting victim on his next effort.

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    Hi Rottie, thanks for your post... I've read your thoughts and have to respectfully disagree. Here's why:

    When I said he wasn't making bad moves, I mean he wasn't pounding on cars or obviously carrying a weapon. However there was something in his behavior that was aggressive. Definately scamming people to open up the window, a young dude with attitude.

    I'll submit to you that I actually DID leave the gun out of it. I merely made sure that I could access it more quickly.

    I normally leave the gun in the glove box, which is proper for carry in North Carolina. However, when I pulled up to the intersection and saw the guy's behavior I quickly was on alert because we've had carjackings by armed robbers in this area.

    Because of that, I moved the gun from the glovebox to an openly carried position on the seat, where I would have faster access. This is also legal within North Carolina..
    At no time did I touch the weapon. The guy was standing in a public intersection looking into my car and saw it on the seatbelt.

    Did I feel threatened? Close. On high alert. Had I felt endangered the weapon was available though.

    Will continue thinking through your advice though, because it is important that all of us who take on the responsibility of carrying, do so with balance.


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