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Thread: Trading Security for Liberty? (a Youtube video you must watch)

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGacRvgtC90

    i just watched this, and i felt a slight wave of nausea wash over me. here is a man, who was once a Presidential cabinet member, believes it's acceptable to strip a person of their citizenship, and Constitutionally recognized rights, without judicial due process. even those who've been charged and found guilty of espionage and treason at least get the benefit of a trial.

    i think that the fact this law is even being considered is sign that America has finally entered its self destruct sequence, and the countdown has begun.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.

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    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    The question is, who decides if the person is terrorist? The Executive branch? Hmm. No thanks, I'll take a trail by my peers. (you know, what is protected under the Constitution)
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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    Are you saying that due process would not apply to the removal of citizenship? I (and the SCOTUS) would have a problem with that.

    Not with the stripping of citizenship from one who would wage war on the US, but with that stripping not being a result of due process.

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    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    That law is UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!! You cannot strip a citizen of their citizenship... this law was made so they can put you in some secret prison somewhere without a trial, without even evidence that you committed a crime... only that you MIGHT commit a crime in the future... have you NOT been paying attention... Obama made it clear when he talked about "Indefinite Preventative Detention"... this new proposed law just makes it easier to strip US citizens of their rights and detain them indefinitely without trial... do you really want the US to become a banana Republic?

    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Regular Member Washintonian_For_Liberty's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    Are you saying that due process would not apply to the removal of citizenship? I (and the SCOTUS) would have a problem with that.

    Not with the stripping of citizenship from one who would wage war on the US, but with that stripping not being a result of due process.
    First, there is no Constitutional justification to strip citizenship... there is a case for treason... but you must follow the Constitution on determining that.

    From all I have read on your statements, you would have been siding with the British in 1770 and would have cheered the capture of our Founding fathers and labeled them terrorists deserving of life imprisonment or execution.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    the problem i have with this new proposed law is that it would enable the Fed to strip someone of their rights without due process. if you don't see the problem with that, you need to think about it harder. i don't agree with that action even if a person were given a fair trial, but to do it without even meeting the burden of proof is wholly un-American, and perverse to our way of life. it undermines everything that we stand for, especially people like us, who live our lives in accordance with the Constitution.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Are you saying that due process would not apply to the removal of citizenship? I (and the SCOTUS) would have a problem with that.

    Not with the stripping of citizenship from one who would wage war on the US, but with that stripping not being a result of due process.
    First, there is no Constitutional justification to strip citizenship... there is a case for treason... but you must follow the Constitution on determining that.

    From all I have read on your statements, you would have been siding with the British in 1770 and would have cheered the capture of our Founding fathers and labeled them terrorists deserving of life imprisonment or execution.
    First of all, you have not answered my question. That is deflection. That is disingenuous.

    Secondly, I don't know which side of the issue I would have been on in 1770. Or in 1771, 1772, 1773, 1774, 1775, or 1776. I do know this: that if I did choose to join the rebellion, I would be breaking the law of the nation to which I belonged and subject to being put to death for it. I would take such a decision very seriously. It is quite final. But, at least I have the rationality and the honesty to admit that I don't know just when I would join a rebellion.

    Lastly, I resent your implication about my character. You don't know me. A lot of people talk boldly on a message board about being defiant of their government. You are a bold man behind a keyboard who has yet to pledge his Life, his Fortune, and his sacred Honor to anyone for anything, yet seems to demand that of others. You are no longer deserving of one whit of my attention.

    Have a nice life.

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    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    the problem i have with this new proposed law is that it would enable the Fed to strip someone of their rights without due process. if you don't see the problem with that, you need to think about it harder. i don't agree with that action even if a person were given a fair trial, but to do it without even meeting the burden of proof is wholly un-American, and perverse to our way of life. it undermines everything that we stand for, especially people like us, who live our lives in accordance with the Constitution.
    I find it hard to fathom that they could do this without due process and would join the fight against it if they could. Can you support your assertion with actual words from the actual bill that substantiates your charge?

    I think the proposal to deny gun purchases to folks on the no-fly list for precisely this reason: that their RKBA is being abridged without due process of law.

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    giving up your rights for a little security, you deserve neither....remember?

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    That law is UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!! You cannot strip a citizen of their citizenship... this law was made so they can put you in some secret prison somewhere without a trial, without even evidence that you committed a crime... only that you MIGHT commit a crime in the future... have you NOT been paying attention... Obama made it clear when he talked about "Indefinite Preventative Detention"... this new proposed law just makes it easier to strip US citizens of their rights and detain them indefinitely without trial... do you really want the US to become a banana Republic?
    This is exactly what they intend to do with this legislation. And don't think they would use this as a means to disarm the People.

    Wake up folks! the system is collapsing! When law and order breaks down, only the well armed will survive, and those in power want to be the only ones who are well armed. More and more I get the feeling that the war on terror has been orchestrated to make people feel as if broad and sweeping legislation like the Patriot Act are necessary for the security of a free state.

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    Are you saying that due process would not apply to the removal of citizenship? I (and the SCOTUS) would have a problem with that.

    Not with the stripping of citizenship from one who would wage war on the US, but with that stripping not being a result of due process.
    Wow, you sound like a hard line LIBERAL, r u sure that your in the correct forum ? No one cares what you & the SCOTUS have issues with, the SCOTUS is a JOKE anyways. It's sounds to me like your a hardcore supporter of the Patriot Act ( Geshtapo Act) , were you one of the Millions of spinless Americans that were quick to trade away your freedom for Security ? Their is a document penned by our founding fathers that says,
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


    and then their is this one , that I KNOW you object to....




    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[71] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.



    Remember, our current Government is at best a corrupt HOLLOW SHELL of what our founding fathers fought & Died to create... If they were alive today, this Government would label them as DOMESTIC TERRORISTS......


    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Government should never have the ability to strip its constituents of their citizenship. Such an act should be considered a causality violation.

    This applies even to the guilty, the imprisoned, any criminal who has not renounced US citizenship he is otherwise entitled to.

    It's not like government needs to do this in order to punish people. This is just an excuse to circumvent another constitutional impediment to entirely arbitrary authority.

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    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

    Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
    AUDE VIDE TACE

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    Glock34 wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Are you saying that due process would not apply to the removal of citizenship? I (and the SCOTUS) would have a problem with that.

    Not with the stripping of citizenship from one who would wage war on the US, but with that stripping not being a result of due process.
    Wow, you sound like a hard line LIBERAL, r u sure that your in the correct forum ? No one cares what you & the SCOTUS have issues with...
    Ya know what? If you are genuinely interested in a back and forth of ideas in which your ideas may actually be tweaked or in which you might tweak the ideas of others, you should change your attitude.

    You may have had something valuable to say, but I stopped reading where I put the ... .

    Are you interested in changing the hearts and minds of others, or in just the misplaced self-satisfaction of thinking you have insulted others well?

    Moving on.

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    SavageOne wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

    Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
    I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

    The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

    They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

    I don't.

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    Nor do I. My point is that the founding fathers foresaw a time when opposing the government would not be treason, but patriotism to the very foundations of this country. I chose to put my faith in the Constitution not the body that seems set upon changing the very source of it's powers.





    AUDE VIDE TACE

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    SavageOne wrote:
    Nor do I. My point is that the founding fathers foresaw a time when opposing the government would not be treason, but patriotism to the very foundations of this country. I chose to put my faith in the Constitution not the body that seems set upon changing the very source of it's powers.
    Actually, they knew it was treason. They made the most of it, pledging their Lives, their Fortunes, and their sacred Honor.

    I point this out because many here are talking like we are at another 1776-style crossroads. I don't think that we are. However, those who do are talking big, unaware of the level of commitment they have, as yet, not made themselves, yet seem to demand of others.

    On edit: I just decided that the context demanded that I bold part of my post. The content remained unchanged.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    and when do you think another 1776 will be needed ??!! in another 10-20 years, when taxation is at 75% of your wages ? When big brother turns in to big Father?
    when troops patrol the streets ( oh, wait they already do with the Militarized police )
    The founding frames went to war with the British for a fraction of what OUR government does to us today on a daily basis.

    How long until we grow a spine ?

    How long before some of us wake up to the HARSH realities ?

    America is now a nation of cowards that are happy to be taxed as high as they are, with higher taxes just around the corner, happy to think they are being represented & happy to be ignorant enough that they actually think they are free.


    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Are you saying that due process would not apply to the removal of citizenship? I (and the SCOTUS) would have a problem with that.

    Not with the stripping of citizenship from one who would wage war on the US, but with that stripping not being a result of due process.
    Wow, you sound like a hard line LIBERAL, r u sure that your in the correct forum ? No one cares what you & the SCOTUS have issues with...
    Ya know what? If you are genuinely interested in a back and forth of ideas in which your ideas may actually be tweaked or in which you might tweak the ideas of others, you should change your attitude.

    You may have had something valuable to say, but I stopped reading where I put the ... .

    Are you interested in changing the hearts and minds of others, or in just the misplaced self-satisfaction of thinking you have insulted others well?

    Moving on.
    insult you ? no, you take care of that very well on your own every time to type.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    SavageOne wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

    Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
    I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

    The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

    They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

    I don't.
    I don't disagree with you (entirely), but I think the king would have skipped over the parts in red. Based on the kings violations of human rights, it would be my opinion that he had no right to arrest them, but that's just me.

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    buster81 wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    SavageOne wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

    Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
    I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

    The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

    They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

    I don't.
    I don't disagree with you (entirely), but I think the king would have skipped over the parts in red. Based on the kings violations of human rights, it would be my opinion that he had no right to arrest them, but that's just me.
    Tyrants often skip the steps in red. However, that is usually for two reasons King George did not have to worry about. 1) Acquittal. The case for treason would have been a slam dunk. 2) Bad publicity. In this case, in England, had the traitors been captured, the trial would have been a national celebration. Tyrants love trials that boost their popularity and power and have no risk attached.

    It would be my opinion that he had the right to try the traitors. What cost him that right was his losing the war, turning the traitors into the patriots that (I'm glad) they are recognized to be today.

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    buster81 wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    SavageOne wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

    Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
    I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

    The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

    They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

    I don't.
    I don't disagree with you (entirely), but I think the king would have skipped over the parts in red. Based on the kings violations of human rights, it would be my opinion that he had no right to arrest them, but that's just me.
    Tyrants often skip the steps in red. However, that is usually for two reasons King George did not have to worry about. 1) Acquittal. The case for treason would have been a slam dunk. 2) Bad publicity. In this case, in England, had the traitors been captured, the trial would have been a national celebration. Tyrants love trials that boost their popularity and power and have no risk attached.

    It would be my opinion that he had the right to try the traitors. What cost him that right was his losing the war, turning the traitors into the patriots that (I'm glad) they are recognized to be today.

  25. #25
    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    buster81 wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    SavageOne wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

    I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.
    Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

    Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
    I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

    The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

    They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

    I don't.
    I don't disagree with you (entirely), but I think the king would have skipped over the parts in red. Based on the kings violations of human rights, it would be my opinion that he had no right to arrest them, but that's just me.
    Tyrants often skip the steps in red. However, that is usually for two reasons King George did not have to worry about. 1) Acquittal. The case for treason would have been a slam dunk. 2) Bad publicity. In this case, in England, had the traitors been captured, the trial would have been a national celebration. Tyrants love trials that boost their popularity and power and have no risk attached.

    It would be my opinion that he had the right to try the traitors. What cost him that right was his losing the war, turning the traitors into the patriots that (I'm glad) they are recognized to be today.
    A mock, fixed trial is not a trial. Just another violation.

    The king was a criminal.

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