Debate Thread - Children and Guns

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If you are going to read the debate, you need to read his first couple of posts from Mr. Swine. I think you will quickly see that his intention was to just go around in circles. In the end, he is just another one who has built up his own mental defense mechanisms so he doesn't need to own his own feelings and fears. A good case for a pshycyatrist and asadpuppet for the Brady Bunch, or whoever pulls his strings.



http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=17731&forum_id=4&jump_to=730374#p730374

The words of Swine:

"This incident raises the question -> what about the children? We can arm ourselves for self protection as adults, but kids are vulnerable to crime as well. We could well have a rash of child kidnappings for ransom in this country like they do in Mexico, not to mention the sexual predators out there. Once everybody is properly armed, law abiders and criminals alike (assuming they have no record), who will protect the children, or do we arm them too?"

Notice how none ofhis efforts described who will protect the children riding their bikes 8 miles away from home from the kidnappers and sexual predators? Was he going to let them carry his poison dart gun bouncing around in their baggy shorts? Was his panic button going to bring the police instantaneously to his child's location?

"My concern is this: Once two hundred and fifty or so million U.S. citizens are packing all day long, including little old blue haired ladies on walkers, WHO'S GOING TO PROTECT THE EFFING CHILDREN, while they're, for example, out riding their bikies on a fine summer's day?

In the city where I live (San Francisco) little kids routinely get shot in the head from the crossfire from the gangbangers having shootouts with one another as a slightly less boring alternative to playing video games. Unless you're going to put every child on a leash until (s)he's old enough to start packing herself, our future generations will be in mortal danger. Maybe that's a good thing. Fewer kids, fewer gun owners."

Here we see thesigns of a desperate fear monger. An all caps demand to know who is going to protect the effing children while out riding their bikes. We also see the illogical relationship introduced to gang violence. It's pretty tough to relate the huge numberof murders that take place in a very small number of gang neighborhoods, with the other >90%of the country. It's in this rest of the country where the overwhelming majority of the people are at danger from robbery, car jack, rape, murder, etcby cowardlypredator criminals.Moral of the gang banger story, stay away from crack houses swine.

When asked for evidence of these assertions, none was provided. Surprised?

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Personally I'm glad the debate never really got to the topic of Open Carry. Seeing as how I believe that open carry is the correct and proper way to carry, and that concealed carry should be illegal (I know, I know. Shall not be infringed) I was ill equipped to address points that CC would be just as effective.

I tried not to focus so much on the issue of guns and children itself, but rather the ways to reduce accidental, negligent, and purposeful firearm-related death of children. What do you think I could have done better?

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He bailed as things were getting warmed up. Dang I was hoping this would be a good one.

And I too have a strong stance against concealed carry.

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Ok, so I'm sneaking back to the scene of the crime. I chose to reply to an eye95 post because he was the moderator of the defunct debate. I only want to say to those who didn't understand it that the debate I intended to participate in was whetherunanimous open carrying of firearms by all able bodied adults over the age of ___ (fill in the blanks yourself) would leave children under that age (and therefore NOT carrying) without the same protection as the adults. I still believe that would be the case. I would hate to have grown up inMcDonalk's current time when he can't let hiseight year old kids out of his sight for a minute. I used to ride my bike freely around the city I grew up in atthat age and my folks didn't even know where I was until I arrived back home and they happened to ask me. What a world if kids can't do that anymore. They've gotcell phones of course so maybe it's not that bad, but still.

The picture that bothers me thatdrew meinto the now defunct debate was the picture of every adultAmerican having an unconcealed firearm strapped to his or her belt or purse walking around looking for trouble that might or might not come, with their children up to the age of legal open carry being kept onthose curley leashes or the ones that roll up into the holder like they use with dogs these days. What a world. If y'all want that world, you can have it. Fortunately at my age (68) I will probablybe long gone before it comes to that.

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you just keep going, and going, and going!
honestly,, you, and your ideas, just dont even start to make any sense.
i wish the world was a simpler place, like i remember it being when i was a kid.
its a different world now, for everybody.
being older, and set in your ways makes keeping up with the way changes are taking place,
shall we say,,, difficult !!

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you just keep going, and going, and going!
and no doubt you would like me to just go......away!

honestly,, you, and your ideas, just dont even start to make any sense. Point out just one, the one about not wanting to see kids on leashes, for example? Be specific.


i wish the world was a simpler place, like i remember it being when i was a kid. So you guys like and accept this new 'violent' world where you have to keep your kids on a leash? Let's keep our guns at home and we can have my 'simpler world' back.
its a different world now, for everybody.
For you and your gun buddies maybe, not for me, not if I can help it.

being older, and set in your ways makes keeping up with the way changes are taking place, shall we say,,, difficult !! On what basis do you accuse me of 'being set in my ways?' I'm willing to learn how to use the internet to engage (my friends say 'enrage') you guys, aren't I? Is that 'set in my ways?'

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Another point to consider when discussing the difference in the "time when we were kids", to the current time that our kids are growing up......the information age....internet, cell phones, etc...

It's not so much that our world has become so much more violent than it used to be. It's that we hear and read about so much more of it happening in the news. We all know....Bad News Makes Great Press.

Check the actual nationwide statistics on murder, violent crimes, kidnappings, etc. For the most part stats have gone up and down. Overall not a huge, notable difference.

I remember watching the news, national and local, with my folks back in the early eighties. National covered 1 or 2 big, breakingstories, then it was all politics. Local rarely ever covered events from other major areas.

But now, the press has the ability to moniter several hundred news stories, with up to the minute updates with the internet.

Now with that ability to know what is going on all over the US, a great percentage of parents "need to protect our children". Keep them inside, video games, dvds, texting.... The flipside to this is the kids themselves, in some cases, are socially incapable. In some extreme cases, some kids aren't capable of dealing with the "real" world and all its problems, because they were so sheltered growing up.

Anyone agree / disagree???

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swine wrote:

you just keep going, and going, and going!
and no doubt you would like me to just go......away!
no,, i mean you keep spewing thoughts and ideas that noone on this forum can agree with!

honestly,, you, and your ideas, just dont even start to make any sense. Point out just one, the one about not wanting to see kids on leashes, for example? Be specific
a dart gun for self defence, but is safe to be around kids,,, leaving our self defence guns at home, so the world will magicly be a safer and genteler place.

i wish the world was a simpler place, like i remember it being when i was a kid. So you guys like and accept this new 'violent' world where you have to keep your kids on a leash? i dont accept this new violent world,, it has been foisted on us by violent criminals, and gangs,, i fight against it, with good manners, abiding by the law, and carrying a gun, i send a message to the bad guys that im mad as hell and im not gonna take it anymore!!!
Let's keep our guns at home and we can have my 'simpler world' back.
refusing yourself the means for your own defence will only make it simpler for the bad guys to commit crimes against you, your loved ones, and others around you.
its a different world now, for everybody.
For you and your gun buddies maybe, not for me, not if I can help it.
me and my gun buddies do not endanger the world, we are defending the constitution, the state, and the citizens. you cannot help it if your head is burried in the sand.

being older, and set in your ways makes keeping up with the way changes are taking place, shall we say,,, difficult !! On what basis do you accuse me of 'being set in my ways?' you did not even once accept any of the information comming to you from the other side of your debate, in fact you did even debate! you sounded like a brady buncher with your panties in a wad!
I'm willing to learn how to use the internet to engage (my friends say 'enrage') you guys, aren't I? Is that 'set in my ways?'
and to add,,, even in my younger days lots of parents tied a leash to rambuctious young kids while out, its a good insurance chioce to make sure someone doesnt run out in the street, or getting separated in a crowd during a distacting moment.
adults everwhere should always be prepared to watch out for the general safety, security, and welfare of others, weather young or old. adults should be carrying the means of self defence everywhere they go, and whenever they go!!!!

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swine wrote:

honestly,, you, and your ideas, just dont even start to make any sense. Point out just one, the one about not wanting to see kids on leashes, for example? Be specific.

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Happy to. There are trends that have come about in the past XX years that are pretty messed up, I agree. Some trends I think are silly, some stupid, some brilliant... The "leashes" I believe you're referring to (tangible leashes, not metaphoric leashes) used on tikes are a little silly. I see the benefit(s) and I also see the absurdity. The same goes with many kid handling gadgets. To that I said to each their own. As far as the metaphoric leash, meaning keeping a closer eye on our kids and not letting them roam the way we did; that's a reaction tothe "new violent world" that's been thrust upon us. In this day and age, giving our kids the freedom to roam the way WE did would probably get us brought up on neglect charges, if not result in the loss or violation of our kids.

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i wish the world was a simpler place, like i remember it being when i was a kid. So you guys like and accept this new 'violent' world where you have to keep your kids on a leash? Let's keep our guns at home and we can have my 'simpler world' back.

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I didn't realize until you posted this comment just HOW disillusioned you are. If you think that by letting our kids run free and lawfully armed citizens leaving their guns at home would suddenly stop the violence that plagues us all, then you have bigger issues than folks who keep their kids on leashes. Wake up and smell the meth lab, dude. We are not making "our world" any more violent. We are sheepdogs. It's the wolves that make our society dangerous and violent, and it's we sheepdogs who combat it. Converting sheepdogs into sheep only makes things easier for the wolf and puts more sheep at risk. A pasture of sheep, with no sheepdogs, doesn't bring your "simpler world" back. It only simplifies the world for the wolves. Even though we are NOT seeing eye to eye, we are on your side. We, too, would like a safer world back, and we, too, wish it were safer to let our kids roam like we did - and we're trying to get there by outnumbering and outarming those who are making our would dangerous. That's how we defeat them, not by disarming ourselves and cutting our kids loose to run free in a society with an increasingly high liklihood of being victimized.

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its a different world now, for everybody.
For you and your gun buddies maybe, not for me, not if I can help it.

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Are you familiar with the term "denial"? It IS a different world than the one we grew up in - but not for you? That just says to me that yes, you and I ARE living in different worlds. Not for you, not if you can help it. So, you're helping it by joining the rest of the sheep in the flock, huh? That's real effective, good luck with that. We're ALL in this "newer violent world", like it or not. We didn't make it this way, society has evolved into what it is. We can either deny that things are eff'd up and pretend it's still Mr. Rogers' neighborhood and, in doing so, subject ourselves to an increasing chance of being victimized, or we can react to it, arm ourselves, and be ready and willing to dispatch the wolves who come knocking. Obviously, we chose the latter....And by the way - you can't help it.

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being older, and set in your ways makes keeping up with the way changes are taking place, shall we say,,, difficult !! On what basis do you accuse me of 'being set in my ways?' I'm willing to learn how to use the internet to engage (my friends say 'enrage') you guys, aren't I? Is that 'set in my ways?'

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Bravo for familiarizing yourself with computers and the internet. That's a good start. But... its a different world now, for everybody. For you and your gun buddies maybe, not for me, not if I can help it. This is a strong indicator that you are, indeed, set in your ways- at least some of your ways, to be fair.You like the world you used to know and are essentially pretending that it still is. How can you watch even one news broadcast and say that it's not a different world?! It would seem that this "new world" would continually slap you in the face. How long can you deny it?

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You know that you're not 'enraging' us, right? You should point out to your friends that just because we're armed and promote armament, that doesn't mean that we're prone to enragement. Enragement...is that a word? Well, it is today. It sounds like your friends, if yourself not included, already have a preconcieved perception of those of us who carry, and judging by your posts, you aren't going to be too willing to accept that we're not the people you've imagined us to be.

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so well said,,, its even better than what i wrote!:celebrate

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Well, it looks like all of the pieces of the puzzle are in place.

Projection. Check.

Denial. Check.

Reaction Formation. Check.

Distorted Reality. Check.

Identity as a victim. Check.

Rage. Check.

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1245A Defender wrote:

so well said,,, its even better than what i wrote!:celebrate

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Aw, thanks... gonna make me all misty.... lol Not to sound arrogant I hope, but after I posted it I re-read it and said to myself "damn, that was well-written!" Thanks. :celebrate

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Marlboromade a good point. So did Penn and Teller B.S. episode stranger danger.

The overwhelming majority of danger to kids come from their own parents and relatives.

My great great grandfather carried a gun everywhere he went openly all over the states even before some were states. Never heard any stories where he had to use it.

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Complained about the 10-on-1 debate. Was given a chance to do a 1-on-1 debate. Failed miserably in that attempt and then quit. Is now back, encouraging another 10-on-1.

Sorry, swine, you had a chance to have a rational debate with one person and establish some credibility with us. You blew that chance.

As far as I am concerned, you're done.

Of course, you can physically keep posting. But, you're done.

We are rational. They are emotional. And, that's the end of the story.

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Over before it started.

My contribution is simple. Before guns were banned in Australia. At ten years of age, I was shooting rabbits and ducks for food with and sometimes without my dad.

It was instilled in me from the age of reason that a firearm was a tool, only to be used in the gathering of food andin an emergency,for self defence. I was never fascinated by any firearmnor consideredthem cowboy toys, which needed to be waved about and pointed at various imaginary targets,just asI am not fascinated by or considerhammers, buz-saws, or pick axes, toys that needed to be waved about and pointed at various imaginary pieces of wood.They are all tools.

In the days of my youth, Town school bullies who knew what we were about, left country boys that hunted and gathered their food with their dad'sand lived mainly off the land alone. In fact they desired our way of life.

Some yearslater, as a member of the School Cadets, I and others my age,were carrying 303's to and from high schoolon the train. No one even looked atus.

Before the gun ban, I did use a firearm toprotected myself, mywife and my familyfrom beingassulted, my girls being raped andus being robbedwhilst camped on a vast outback property.



Would I open carry if it was legal here? YOU BET I WOULD, AND SO WOULD MY ENTIRE ADULT FAMILY.

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Swine has posted a couple of troll threads in Michigan as well. One of which I put down personally. He was given fair chance to prove that it was an honest mistake, tried to string us along in beleiving he was legit, and now this?

pfffft.

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Swine wrote;

"Starting from the bottom of your response and moving up, I can tell you that I don’t know how long it took the police to arrive on the scene after my wife pushed the panic button because I was away on a business trip. She told me that they arrived before she ‘came to her senses’ and realized that the noises weren’t coming from our apartment. It’s worth noting that the drunken neighbors were almost equally terrified by the loud noise that went off in our apartment as a result of the panic button and briefly wondered if they were in danger themselves. It is a fairly reasonable assumption that any actual intruder would have been unlikely to proceed to my wife’s bedroom, in the face of all that noise and the likelihood that the police were on the way, for the sole purpose of putting a bullet in her head or raping her in retaliation for pushing the panic button as a consequence of her hearing said intruder in her home. To put it in simpler terms, in a real intruder situation, I firmly to this day believe the panic button would have done the trick and we therefore had no need then and have no need now to keep a gun in the house."

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Dear Swine, How would your wife and her panic button have worked in this situation?

Never to be Released: Crimes of Kevin Crump & Allan Baker
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/baker/2.html

In rural New South Wales, Australia, Allan Baker and Kevin Crump murdered a complete stranger for $20, a packet of cigarettes and a couple of gallons of gasoline.

Then, for no other reason other than that one of the men had once worked for her family as a farm hand, they kidnapped Virginia Morse, a young mother of three, from her home.

IF THE YOUNGEST CHILD HAD BEEN THERE THEY WOULD HAVE MURDEREDHIM AS WELL!

"When we were behind the haystack Allan said that if Virginia Morse was there we would take her with us, and he thought the youngest kid was there, because he didn't know he was going to school. When we got to the shack [the old police station] we put the petrol in my car and Allan said we would have to get rid of her, but we would take her away and rape her first.

Virginia Morse was repeatedly raped and tortured while Crump and Baker drove to neighboring Queensland.

IF YOUR SQUEEMISH swine dont read on, or maybe you can convince yourself things dont happen to people, its all a fairy tale!

Crump and Baker then decided to head north, over the border and into Queensland. They stopped at hotels and garages along the way and bought beer and gas with the $30 they had stolen from the Morse homestead. They drove mainly at night to avoid detection. During the approximate 120-mile journey Morse sobbed and pleaded for her life while Crump and Baker took turns raping her.

During a police interview, Baker said of the experience, "We took her gag off and she kept on saying, 'What's going to happen to me? My children will be home form school and waiting for me now. I love my children. Please let me go home.' I just told her to shut up."

Crump and Baker pulled up at a clearing just short of the Queensland border. Here they "staked out" Morse with tow ropes tied to trees. Each man raped her again. Prosecutors then alleged that the two men took Morse on into Queensland, where they stopped by the Weir River. To a hushed courtroom the prosecutor read the last minutes of Virginia Morse's life from Allan Baker's statement:

"She wasn't tied to the tree, her hands were tied in front of her with handkerchiefs, she wasn't crying because I think she was beyond that, she'd been crying most of the time she was gagged and blindfolded. I aimed at her with the .308 and Kevin [Crump] had the .222 and it was going to be like a firing squad and Kevin pulled the trigger and she fell to the ground before I could pull the trigger of my gun. If he hadn't of shot her, I would because we both decided to kill her because we done those terrible things to her and she would have been able to identify me because I used to work for her husband and I knew if she reported me we would be in a lot of trouble and she just had to be shot."

As he did with the Lamb murder, Crump tried to evade responsibility for Morse's murder in his police statement. "I was forced to kill Mrs. Morse by Baker, because he wanted me to be in as deep as him. He said he was going to kill me if I didn't. I admit that I was prepared to kidnap Mrs. Morse and even to sleep with her, but once again, as with Mr. Lamb, I did not want to be a part of her death...It was a choice of either me or Mrs. Morse."

Crime reporter Joe Morris recalled the court's reaction to the detailed firsthand accounts of the last minutes of Virginia Morse's life: "There was a stunned silence. Women were sobbing and Mr. Brian Morse sat there with his head in his hands. Crump and Baker were smirking at each other. They thought that it was a great joke.

DONT READ ANY MORE SWINE, THIS IS THE BAD WORLD WERE TALKING ABOUT NOW, WHERE PEOPLE UNARMED AND DEFENCELESS AS YOU WOULD LIKE THEM ALL TO BE MUST COP THIS SORT OF TREATMENT! Your as big a coward as Kevin Crump and Allan baker are!

"What the court didn't hear, as the evidence was suppressed as it was considered to be too shocking, was that Mrs. Morse had tree branches inserted into her vagina and a beer bottle inserted into her anus. And it was also kept from public hearing that Crump and Baker were also alleged to have admitted to having sex with her corpse after she was dead."

Picture below Allan barker being arrested not far from my home.

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Swine wrote,

"To put it in simpler terms, in a real intruder situation, I firmly to this day believe the panic button would have done the trick and we therefore had no need then and have no need now to keep a gun in the house."

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A thousand panic buttons would not have helped Virginia Morse, or the many hundreds of women who are brutalized, raped and murdered each year across the world by the likes of these two.

Snivelling coward Crump pulled from the swamp not far from my property.

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my panic button is that little grey release on my blackhawk serpa holster, that ever so conveniently lands your finger exactly where its supposed to be in a situation like this.

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Hi MarlboroLts5150.

You wrote,

"Now with that ability to know what is going on all over the US, a great percentage of parents "need to protect our children". Keep them inside, video games, dvds, texting.... The flipside to this is the kids themselves, in some cases, are socially incapable. In some extreme cases, some kids aren't capable of dealing with the "real" world and all its problems, because they were so sheltered growing up."

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Mate. I agree. Talk about being sheltered and raising brats who care about nothing but themselves. Here in Aust, we have new rules in our primery schools and day care centers.

The New Rules are.

.1 Teachers should not use the phrases "good girl, naughty, no, and dont.


So If a child kicks a teacher in the kneecap and breaks it the teacher must not say, "NO or dont." Yeh, right, can anyone see that happening?


.2 Time out should not be used because the child feels isolated and discriminated against.


So, if the child lights a fire in class, tries to burn the school down, which happens here occasionally, or punches another student or teacher or causes any trouble we cannot isolate or discriminate againstthe child because this may give the child a complex? Poor child. Maybe we should reward the child, or would this be discrimination against children who never cause trouble and therefore they miss out on rewards for being good? Hang on, we cannot say good boy or girl?

.3 Children fighting each other should say "stop, I dont like that" and put their hand up and palm up.

Cananyone see this working when they grow up? Some one attacksyou with a knife baseball bat or firearm? "Stop, I dont like that," asyou fall to the ground and are robbed or raped.

.4 teachers should ignore a child who is misbehaving and look and focus on a child behaving well.


I bet if the child spills ink all over the teachers deak and coat draped over the chair the child wont be ignored for too long?


5. Instead of using negative language, such as "dont run inside," say "we walk inside."


Thats cool. Soif theres a fire, or an armed crazy running amok in the building the unarmed Aussie teachers will calmly tell the children to fall in line and slowly walk to the front door while we dail a pizza, I mean call the police because "we dont run inside, we walk."

Where will it end?


Amanda Shad, teacher in at World Tower Childcare in Sydneys CBD, said the time out chair was banned. She said, "If DoCS (NSW Department of Community services come in, it is seen as discrimination, so we have to follow regulations," The phrases "good boy or good girl,"were discouraged as labing a child.We cannot lable a child as it could give them a complex.

Ms Shad said, "We try not to use the word 'no' - we say biting hurts our friends," focusing on what they should be doing rather than what they should not be doing."

How can any sane person believe raising children using this method produces sane sensible adults who know how to obey the laws of the land and live lives focused on doing good for the benefit of all mankind rather than focusing on self?

Haz.