imported post
I knew I should have waited till tomorrow to check this thread... Oh, well. Here goes. For the record, I feel the text format I am about to use is poor form for this sort of debate, but since it is my last post (and 1 o'clock in the morning here) I hope you will excuse me not wanting to miss any points.
swine wrote:
Starting from the bottom of your response and moving up, I can tell you that I don’t know how long it took the police to arrive on the scene after my wife pushed the panic button because I was away on a business trip. She told me that they arrived before she ‘came to her senses’ and realized that the noises weren’t coming from our apartment. It’s worth noting that the drunken neighbors were almost equally terrified by the loud noise that went off in our apartment as a result of the panic button and briefly wondered if they were in danger themselves. It is a fairly reasonable assumption that any actual intruder would have been unlikely to proceed to my wife’s bedroom, in the face of all that noise and the likelihood that the police were on the way, for the sole purpose of putting a bullet in her head or raping her in retaliation for pushing the panic button as a consequence of her hearing said intruder in her home. To put it in simpler terms, in a real intruder situation, I firmly to this day believe the panic button would have done the trick and we therefore had no need then and have no need now to keep a gun in the house.
You didn't answer what your wife did after hitting the button. Are you comfortable with the fact that your wife may have been cowering in fear, defenseless because of your reliance on the police to protect your family? If you truly feel that you have no need for a weapon because you have the police on speed-dial then I truly hope you never have cause to regret that choice. It seems we will remain at an impasse in this case. At least we agree that keeping a weapon in the home should be a personal choice and not mandated or restricted by the government.
Regarding the causes of deaths of children, I provided verifiable statistics in another thread on this site that showed that the second leading cause of death for children ages 10 to 17 was violent gun death (i.e. they were shot and killed by somebody). That is second only to death in automobile accidents. I don’t know where you got your figures regarding ‘deaths at the hands of their parents’, unless you are including abortions or some such thing. If they didn’t shoot their kids what did they do, strangle them? Hit them with a baseball bat? Stick ‘em with a kitchen knife? Where do you get this stuff?
I don't even know where to start with this one. My statistics were verifiable. I cited my source as the CDC, although some of it was second hand from
sudden valley gunner's essay. My statistics do not conflict with yours, as 1) They are for a completely different age range and 2) I thought I was pretty clear that I was discussing the separate issue of
abuse related deaths as a comparison to
firearm related deaths. Even if you substitute
automobile related death for
abuse related death, it is clear that the biggest danger to children of any age are the reckless, negligent, or intentionally harmful actions of others
whether or not guns are involved. I see here that you are starting to loose your ability to rationally discuss the issue...
At what age do you feel that a child is ‘old enough to be miles away from his or her parents’, like on a bicycle ride? I would say, maybe, seven or eight, and I am very reluctant to concede that seven or eight year olds should be allowed to pack a gun. I also think I stand amongst the majority in that opinion.
Whoah, buddy. You said 'protectors' which I argued means 'responsible adults'. If we operate under your assumption of "every family for itself" where 'protector' only means parents, then that changes things significantly in my favor. Letting an 8-year-old child ride a bike on public streets "miles away" from home without adult (or, to satisfy your restrictions, parental) supervision, is something I hope I never do. In the same argument you imply that parents are the only ones with a duty to protect their children, and yet you assert that there is an age where they are old enough to be away from those protectors while not yet old enough to have the means to protect themselves? Being in the majority doesn't always make you in the right. There is a
6-year-old child out there with more firearms training and range time under their belts than most cops. I can show you several YouTube videos of police officers who shouldn't be allowed to 'pack' a gun, and yet you assert that being a child automatically makes you more irresponsible than, say,
a cop who can't tell the difference between their taser and their sidearm.
I find little else but contradictions in your “We, as a society….” paragraph. First you say we should pay taxes to support law enforcement and ensure that police have resources to do the enforcing and then you say we should ‘stop relying on the government’, including presumably the police, to do what we should be doing for ourselves. Which is it? Or did you mean when you said we have to take responsibility for stricter enforcement of laws that we should do the enforcing ‘ourselves’ vigilante style?
You find only what you expected to find. We, as a society, should support out police with taxes, by reporting crimes, and by generally obeying the law. We should also make their jobs easier by being willing and able to deter crime, keep ourselves from becoming victims, and making the potential loss of life and limb a real possibility to those who would pursue a life of crime. I see no contradiction in those beliefs. Are you also the type of person who believes only criminals assert their rights against search and seizure or to remain silent? As for the 'vigilante' style, defense and revenge have little in common. A man who hunts down and executes a criminal, whatever his reasons, should be charged with murder. By 'stricter enforcement of laws' I meant that criminals should be sentenced in ways that reduce repeat offenses. Sentences should be upheld so that criminals know that they will have to face full punishment for their actions. None of this, however, is within our power to directly control. It seems to be a function of our justice system. :banghead:
I do wholeheartedly agree that the best way to reduce violence in society is through education including that of prison inmates. I even think that education taken to an extreme might actually eliminate the need for guns, except of course for ‘need’ in the sense of the infamous gun fetish that so many of you suffer from.
I thought we might be on the verge of agreeing on something, until I read that last sentence. Either you purposefully meant insult or you made an unsupported claim that the majority of gun owners are sexually deviant. Either way, your statement contributes nothing useful to the discussion. Poor form, and something we have, sadly, come to expect in these sorts of discussion.
I advised eye95 in another thread that I was tempted to resign from this debate. I don’t really think it is going anywhere. I will, however, take away from it some resounding phrases to share with my friends and political cohorts such as:
Our fathers made the mistake (emphasis mine) of treating guns as something that should be kept from children,”….and, “They made the mistake of keeping guns hidden away, or better yet not kept at all,”…and, “The key to reducing accidental death is to introduce guns into a child’s worldview….,”….and, “letting a 4 year old handle an unloaded gun will safely satisfy their curiosity,”….and “..your father’s choice impacted the safety of the other four people in the house (though apparently not himself).” I think his decision did impact their safety. It improved it.
If you are going to use my words incompletely and out of context, then I can't stop you. I wouldn't even try. By ignoring the points of my arguments and focusing only on making the most inflammatory statements possible, you show everyone a glimpse of your true character. You say 'political cohorts' and I can easily imagine you as a politician. No, that wasn't a compliment.
You also said that beyond your father’s assurances that the police would protect you, your family had little protection from the potential evils of the world, and then later asserted that we need to make sure the police have the resources to arrest and prosecute criminals, but also to stop relying on them to do for us what we should do for ourselves.
I say again that the police should be supported in their job, which is arresting and prosecuting criminals. We should stop relying on them for things we should do ourselves. What is contradictory about that? The SCOTUS has ruled that a cop has absolutely
no duty whatsoever to be responsible for our safety! What will your wife do if next time she hits the panic button, our overstretched police force can't spare someone to come out? No one is responsible for your safety but you. Until your learn to accept this fact, everything else we say will be gibberish to you. And before you come back just to point out an 'inconsistency' between what I just said and what I said earlier about 'responsible adults' protecting our children, I need you to realize that the self defense is legal responsibility, the protection of children and others is a moral one.
I’m lost. I can’t keep up. I give up. Goodbye.
I'm sorry if the debate didn't meet your expectations. From a personal standpoint, you did little to influence my view on the issues. I am, however, open to further discussion with anyone else. I'll even try to argue the 'anti' point of view if anyone thinks we could gain some insight from another discussion. Goodbye, swine. I wish you well.
If eye95 agrees that this debate is over, I would like to open this thread to comments and criticism of the debate itself. Please try to keep the tensions from the other thread in the other thread. I have a genuine interest in hearing what I did well, and what I could have done better.