Trespassing scenario

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Let's say you're shopping at store(Walmart, Kroger, Sears..fill in the blank) and a LEO shows up to ask you the usual questions. Now mind you, no one in the store ever approached you. After you clear your good name by either complying with ID and such or doing your best to wash rinse repeat the LEO away...if the LEO tells you to leave, do you have to? I know what you probably should do...COMPLY! But legally, can a LEO tell you to leave private property under a trespassing charge if NO ONE else told you to leave prior? Are we supposed to take the LEO's word that the owner/agent asked us to leave? Sometimes another customer has made the 911 call and the owner/agent had no problem with you carrying. Are you disobeying an officers order by asking to verify this request with the owner/agent? What say you all?

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I think as you as complying, like moving toward the door slowly, you can verify with the officer who it was that wanted you to leave and ask to talk to them. If he doesn't specifically give a name and says "the manager" then you can let the officer know you are going to secure your firearm and come back in to speak with the manager.

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A LEO can only ask you to leave if its on behalf of the property owners/representatives. A LEO has no legal authority to ask you to leave private property on their own.

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Do NOT engage in conversation with police. Keep the encounter focused on legalities and know exactly what the legalities are that are operative in the encounter you are involved with.

Oh... and, if legal in your State (I know it is in Michigan but other folks read this too) buy a recorder and record the whole incident.

Your scenario... when told to leave or put my gun in the car...

Officer approaches me and says:

"Hi.. How we doing today?" (right here I immediately disclose that I have a CPL and that I am carrying concealed because I OC and CC at the same time.)

"We got a call (I'm wondering from who? Store management or just a customer? But the officers generally won't say hoping I'll assume it was from the store's management) about someone carrying a gun. Can I see some ID please? (since I carry concealed I must comply)

Now the officer says:

"Well, you are disturbing people and you will have to leave... or says:...go put your gun in your car and finish shopping."

I would ask the officer:

"Did management of this establishment request that you act in their behalf in this matter? Or are you asking me to leave on your own authority?"

if the answer is the manager asked them to tell me to leave (and that actual request must be made by the manager or a representative of the store, not a customer... a 911 call that only states there is someone carrying a gun in the store is NOT a request to have that person leave) then I would leave immediately .. to return later without my openly carried sidearm to speak with the manager... or start a paper trail with Corporate/upper management/actual owner... or both. And if I discover the manager, or a representative of the business itself, never asked LE to tell me to leave I'll be talking to my attorney concerning having charges filed against the officer in question.

if the answer is a wishy washy attempt to cloud, or evade, the issue with talk about investigating a call hoping I'll again assume that call not only came from management but also included a request to have me leave/put my gun in the car........ I would still do the same things above.

And I would record every bit of everything related to the incident.

Please note that I would still leave because I do not want to be manipulated into committing the crime of refusing to obey a police officer's commands... or to be accused of refusing to cooperate with LE.. or resisting a police officer... or what ever charge they were hoping to manuever me into.

Oh... and I would take great care to be sure not to get physically close to an officer, as in try to bush past them to get to the door, nor would I allow an officer to be close enough to bump into me... because I do not want a charge of assaulting a police officer handed to me either. In fact, I would loudly ask that the officer(s) step aside so I can leave. That request would show up on the recording.

I have great respect for LE and most officers are conscientious, honest, and honorable... but there is no reason for LE to expect me, or anyone else, to just fall over in awe and take their words to be law. The law is what the law is... and it applies to us all....... LE included.

And I dislike being manipulated when I am a law abiding person committing no crimes.

But, this is what I will do... other's may have a different approach.

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I have always wondered if an LEO is permitted to ask you to leave, presuming an agent of the business has not already done so. Would that not be the police acting as private security or an employee? In my mind LEO's should not be involved in asking someone who has broken no laws to leave a place. It is the agent or the property's responsibility to request someone leave, not an LEO at all. I just wonder if an LEO is legally allowed to ask you to leave on behalf of the property owner in the first place?

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Bikenut wrote:

I would ask the officer:

"Did management of this establishment request that you act in their behalf in this matter? Or are you asking me to leave on your own authority?"

if the answer is the manager asked them to tell me to leave (and that actual request must be made by the manager or a representative of the store, not a customer... a 911 call that only states there is someone carrying a gun in the store is NOT a request to have that person leave) then I would leave immediately .. to return later without my openly carried sidearm to speak with the manager... or start a paper trail with Corporate/upper management/actual owner... or both. And if I discover the manager, or a representative of the business itself, never asked LE to tell me to leave I'll be talking to my attorney concerning having charges filed against the officer in question.

Click to expand...

I hate to say this, but I can almost guarantee that nearly 100% of officers, even if acting on their own authority and not on the authority of the management will say that they are acting on behalf of the management. Even if you ask to speak to the manager with the officer present, the manager will likely (unless they are a gun nut like us and know the law) side with the officer because the officer is in position of 'authority'. This is the modern day Milgram experiment at work ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ). Sad, but basic psychology will more than likely come into play here. :?

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At the Portage Gander Mtn. seminar we had the good fortune of having a pro-OC officer from the east side of the state show up and talk for a few minutes. I can't remember where he was from exactly but it was a suburb of Detroit. He told us of a tactic the Detroit police are using. They will ask you to leave early in the encounter then let you talk, argue, state your case for a few minutes then arrest you for trespassing because you didn't leave when told to.

Maybe Autosurgeon remembers where the officer was from.

Bronson

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Bronson wrote:

At the Portage Gander Mtn. seminar we had the good fortune of having a pro-OC officer from the east side of the state show up and talk for a few minutes.  I can't remember where he was from exactly but it was a suburb of Detroit.  He told us of a tactic the Detroit police are using.  They will ask you to leave early in the encounter then let you talk, argue, state your case for a few minutes then arrest you for trespassing because you didn't leave when told to.

Maybe Autosurgeon remembers where the officer was from.

Bronson

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Very clever. Now that we know that tactic, we should spread the word and make them go back to square one. Once they can't bust people with bogus BS like this, they'll have to swallow their pride and accept the law for what it is.

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malignity wrote:

Bronson wrote:

At the Portage Gander Mtn. seminar we had the good fortune of having a pro-OC officer from the east side of the state show up and talk for a few minutes. I can't remember where he was from exactly but it was a suburb of Detroit. He told us of a tactic the Detroit police are using. They will ask you to leave early in the encounter then let you talk, argue, state your case for a few minutes then arrest you for trespassing because you didn't leave when told to.

Maybe Autosurgeon remembers where the officer was from.

Bronson

Click to expand...

Very clever. Now that we know that tactic, we should spread the word and make them go back to square one. Once they can't bust people with bogus BS like this, they'll have to swallow their pride and accept the law for what it is.

Click to expand...

I don't... but it was one of the downriver communities.

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I think Bikenut and Malignity are right ... the LEO will most likely say that he/she is acting on behalf of management (even if he/she isn't) , and if asked to confirm that (in the LEOs presence) management will back up the LEO.

Bikenut is also correct that there are plenty of charges that the LEO can hit you with if you refuse to leave (particularly if ANY kind of physical confrontation takes place). Whether they'll "stick" at trial is questionable ... but you'll be forced to hire a lawyer and defend yourself.

I think the MUCH better tactic in this situation is to leave as requested, then contact "corporate" to protest the policy ... and, if applicable, contact the appropriate command officers to protest the way you were treated.


malignity wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

I would ask the officer:

"Did management of this establishment request that you act in their behalf in this matter? Or are you asking me to leave on your own authority?"

if the answer is the manager asked them to tell me to leave (and that actual request must be made by the manager or a representative of the store, not a customer... a 911 call that only states there is someone carrying a gun in the store is NOT a request to have that person leave) then I would leave immediately .. to return later without my openly carried sidearm to speak with the manager... or start a paper trail with Corporate/upper management/actual owner... or both. And if I discover the manager, or a representative of the business itself, never asked LE to tell me to leave I'll be talking to my attorney concerning having charges filed against the officer in question.

Click to expand...

I hate to say this, but I can almost guarantee that nearly 100% of officers, even if acting on their own authority and not on the authority of the management will say that they are acting on behalf of the management. Even if you ask to speak to the manager with the officer present, the manager will likely (unless they are a gun nut like us and know the law) side with the officer because the officer is in position of 'authority'. This is the modern day Milgram experiment at work ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ). Sad, but basic psychology will more than likely come into play here. :?

Click to expand...

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malignity wrote:

This is the modern day Milgram experiment at work ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ). Sad, but basic psychology will more than likely come into play here. :?

Click to expand...

Does this mean that I get to SHOCK some one???

Or how about we bypass the shocks and just use the Kimber Pepper Blaster?

All joking aside, lets think positive and hope that we, as a group, are making an impact and more and more mercantile establishments will accept the presence of those of us who OC!

As for that LEO I'd have to agree with the guys who put away the gun, return without the LEO and speak with owner/ mgr. This way we can avoid the effects of the presence of an "authority".

Peace be with you and be with your piece!