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Thread: Do I have to show ID?

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    Just a bit off topic...




    I can understand that the LEO have more than enough authority to ask me for ID if the local law dictates that a CCW is required to OC.




    I guess my question is, beyond that, are you required in Missouri to show you ID if you are on foot?




    I will post the section of Missouri law which I feel is relevant to situation, but I would love for all opinions.




    I am not trying to start a ruckus, but I feel that the LEO will pursue any avenue to skirt my constitutional rights.




    Missouri Revised Statutes



    Chapter 84
    Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City
    Section
    84.710

    August 28, 2009






    Police force--officers of state--powers to arrest.

    84.710. 1. The members of the police force appointed in pursuance hereof are hereby declared to be officers of the state of Missouri and of the city for which such commissioners are appointed.

    2. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going. When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest.

    3. Any person who has been arrested without a warrant may be released, without being taken before a judge, by the officer in charge of the police station whenever the officer is satisfied that there is no ground for making complaint against him, or when the person was arrested for a misdemeanor and will sign a satisfactory agreement to appear in court at the time designated.

    (RSMo 1939 § 7674, A.L. 1943 p. 727 § 7673, A.L. 1978 H.B. 1634)

    I do not see that I have to produce actual documents...



    Zeke

    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    zekester wrote:
    They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going.
    From this it seems that if they do not have reasonable ground to suspect that one is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime then the demand for personal information is unfounded and refusal to supply such information is therefore protected by the Bill of Rights. IANAL.



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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    That is the way I see it also, but i have read that Missouri is one of few states that can ask for your "physical" ID.....

    I just can't find the statute...

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    Zeke
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    I see that this topic has been covered before, but a TRUE answer was never agreed upon.

    I see that I am beating a dead horse....but has anyone had any "encounters"?
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    I haven't researched the laws enough to know for sure or be able to point to anything but the same statute you've added here. Alike to you, I have tried to answer the same question and have gone through all kinds of various other sources.



    This is my own opinion on this. Of course I am sometimes wrong, but in regards to my own personal feelings, I know I am right.

    I will never show ID on demand to any LEO that stops me outside of mepersonally operating a motor vehicle unless he can articulate reasonable suspicion that I've committeda crime. I tell my sonnot to do it either at his choice when he's a passenger in a car or on footunless the officer can give him valid reason. This happens all the time to teenagers.

    We don't have to show our papers when we move around in public, just because of another person's whim or curiousity. We don't have to keep proof of ourselves on our persons while in public. There is no law against leaving your identification in your car or at your home and going out with your pockets empty. Of course there are exceptions when you are exercising certain priviledges.

    Here's a very interesting read from wikipedia on Kolender v. Lawson

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolender_v._Lawson

    Here's even more intersting information in regards to this case in the form of an interview with Mr. Lawson.

    Cops stop black guy part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJUIz9o0EzM

    Cops stop black guy part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdOqc...eature=related



    Another very interesting read in regards to stop and identify laws is about the case Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada

    found here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_...ourt_of_Nevada



    Basically police encounters can be consensual, detention and arrest. If the stop is consensual, and the police are asking you questions, you are free to go at anytime and free to not participate with the questioning. You do not have to show ID in these cases.

    When you are detained, a police officer must have reasonable suspicion. At this point an officer is allowed to do limited frisk for weapons upheld under Terry v. Ohio. As far as it being against the law to produce ID during detainment, the courtopinion implied in Hiibel v. Sixth that simply stating your name can be enough instead of producing ID.

    This I took straight from wikipedia also it regards to two other cases you may want to look at...

    the Nevada Supreme Court stated:


    In Oliver v. Woods, [209 F.3d 1179, 1190 (10th Cir. 2000)] the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a Utah statute that requires individuals to produce identification to an officer during an investigatory stop. However, in Carey v. Nevada Gaming Control Board [279 F.3d 873, 881 (9th Cir. 2002)], the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that NRS 171.123(3) violates the Fourth Amendment because “'the serious intrusion on personal security outweighs the mere possibility that identification [might] provide a link leading to arrest.'”


    Anyways, to make a long story short, you do not have to identify yourself unless you are being detained. Make sure to ask the LEO if you are free to go and if not, what reasonable suspicion he has that can give him cause to detain you. Looking at MO Rev Stat 84-710(2)
    They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going.
    Its pretty clear that you have to be detained in order to give identification or at least fulfill the above critera in Missouri. I also think that failure to do so can be used in part as evidence of probable cause in order to proceed further with you as far as search and seizure including arrest.

    Again, I am no lawyer, and am no substitute for the professional advice you can get from one. However, that stuff costs money alot of times, plus I am always interested in reading about this sort of stuff so I just do alot of my own researching for my own interests and pleasures.

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    Note that I think there are exceptions in regards to legal roadblocks and checkpoints. I will always show my ID if stopped in one of these. If interested you may want to Google in regards to your rights when encountering one of these situations.

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    Another ID topic. I still haven't gotten my concealed carry endorsement. I've been hem hawing around trying to decide. My father in law isa littleparanoid about it and vehemently tells me its a bad idea.

    My main issue is that I don't want my endorsement physically attached to my driver's license. I don't want anyone who I have to show my ID too, to automatically have information about my priviledge to carry concealed. This could possibly even lead to a limited search of my vehicle in any traffic stop.

    I am leaning on getting a Florida permit. Not only will I have a seperate ID card but there is also a longer duration before I have to get it renewed. I still need to do a little more research on the differences in hoops I have to jump through.



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    MK wrote:
    My main issue is that I don't want my endorsement physically attached to my driver's license. I don't want anyone who I have to show my ID too, to automatically have information about my priviledge to carry concealed. This could possibly even lead to a limited search of my vehicle in any traffic stop.

    I had the same thought about driving through Illinois, encountering a State Trooper, and having to go through a rigamarole.

    So I simply payed $11 and had my CCW endorsement put on a non-driver ID card. Now, when I need my driver's licence...fine. Suzi checkout girl doesn't need to know I'm packing unless I'm OC or I choose to hand her my ID card instead of my DL.

    If I ever DO happen to find myself in Illinois (in some strange parrallel universe) and I get pulled over, there's no need for the State Trooper to know I have a CCW because there's nothing on my DL.

    BTW:
    .....have information about my priviledge to carry concealed.


    You mean "right to carry", correct?

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    MK wrote:
    Another ID topic.** I still haven't gotten my concealed carry endorsement.** I've been hem hawing around trying to decide.** My father in law is*a little*paranoid about it and vehemently tells me its a bad idea.

    My main issue is that I don't want my endorsement physically attached to my driver's license.** I don't want anyone who I have to show my ID too, to automatically have information about my priviledge to carry concealed.** This could possibly even lead to a limited search of my vehicle in any traffic stop.

    I am leaning on getting a Florida permit.* Not only will I have a seperate ID card but there is also a longer duration before I have to get it renewed.** I still need to do a little more research on the differences in hoops I have to jump through.

    *
    just have it put on a state id card / non drivers license...it's 10 bucks...not that big of a deal as you really probably can't count on MO passing preemption anytime soon.

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    You mean "right to carry", correct?
    Well yes and no. Its supposed to be a right to get an ID to be "permitted" to carry in certain places and in certain ways. We are a "shall issue" state which pretty much defines it as a right.

    The thing is, some adults do not have that right and aren't priveledged to carry, so to me its an either/or kind of thing and one where we need to be able to show we are permitted to exercise our right under some circumstances in some ways alike to driving an automobile or many other things we may have to qualify to be licensed to do.

    Either way, it is what it is, and I do see it as both a right but also a priviledge in some respects when carrying in public. My firearms inside my home and on my land and in my car are most definitely my rights as recognized by the U.S. Constitution. In some states you don't even have all of those rights but thank God in Missouri there is alot more leniency for our citizens to own and carry.

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    I think this thread is going in a few directions beyond the scope the OP intended.

    Yes, Missouri has a "stop and identify" law. You are required to give Name, DOB, Place of birth, and they can ask you where you came from and where you are going.

    I do not have the RSMO for it, however regarding an incident in OH I did some research and found it about two years ago, I doubt it has changed.

    Now this is for anyone not participating in a licensed activity. CCW and Driving are both licensed activities requiring the permit be on your person 100% of the time engaged in the activity and your required to produce it at the request of LEO, if you do not have it, the LEO can detain you until which time your identity is legally confirmed.

    While there certainly can be police officers who violate folks rights intentional and non, it is not the case with the majority of them.

    Also note, it is NOT legal to lie to them, you can hush, but you can not lie and providing false identification verbally will result in charges filed against you.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman Universitys School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    zekester wrote:
    I see that this topic has been covered before, but a TRUE answer was never agreed upon.

    I see that I am beating a dead horse....but has anyone had any "encounters"?
    I've had an "encounter", zeke. Had the police report with me yesterday for a few people in Olivette to read.

    Basically don't try to not give your name unless you are prepared to get arrested and go to trial or pay money, at least in St. Charles and other money grabbing cities.

    Cops will lie about reasonable suspicion to suspect a crime, trample your rights, charge with things you didn't do because they are mad you didn't give your name.

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    YOU DO NOT need a CCW to open carry. Anyone can open carry, but not all can CCW unless you have a permit. As far as showing ID. Just ask if stopped if they can explain the reasonable cause for questioning fallowed by "have I broken any laws and am I being detained"? Am I free to go. Generally the officer will know you know your rights and be cautious. He/She may try to give there opinion. I end that by asking where I and there CO can find that in the statue. Be polite and respectful. LT.

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    LT. SOUP wrote:
    YOU DO NOT need a CCW to open carry. Anyone can open carry, but not all can CCW unless you have a permit. As far as showing ID. Just ask if stopped if they can explain the reasonable cause for questioning fallowed by "have I broken any laws and am I being detained"? Am I free to go. Generally the officer will know you know your rights and be cautious. He/She may try to give there opinion. I end that by asking where I and there CO can find that in the statue.* Be polite and respectful.** LT.
    soup your statement regarding OC without CCW is incorrect...there are municipalities in which a CCW Permit IS required in order for you to OC in their jurisdiction.

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    THE QUESTION IS....

    DO I HAVE TO PROVIDE "PHYSICAL" ID TO THE LEO?
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    zekester wrote:
    THE QUESTION IS....

    DO I HAVE TO PROVIDE "PHYSICAL" ID TO THE LEO?
    zeke....it would be my guess that you would have to show id / permit if OC'ing within a jurisdiction that required CCW permit to OC....not sure on having to show ID if you are in a jurisdiction where no permit is required to OC...

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    I Understand that you would have to show a "physical" id if you are carrying oc or otherwise...

    The actual question is....If I am just walking down the street and a leo asked me for ID....am i required in the state of MO...to provide it..




    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Well said. Said it better than I did. Although many statues read. There must be PC or suspision of intent to commit have commit etc.. in order for LEO to demand ID. SOUP.

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    your question has more than a simple yes or no answer, there are a lot of variables. Your question also request a legal opinion that only a lawyer should anser.

    Read below, make your own call or consult a lawyer of your own liking.


    Under Missouri law, a police officer may request identification and perform a computer check of that identification without a basis for reasonable suspicion "as long as the officer does not convey the message that compliance with his request is required." Dixon, 218 S.W.3d at 18-19. Otherwise, requesting identification and performing a computer check of the identification may constitute a seizure, thereby invoking constitutional protections. See Martin, 79 S.W.3d at 917 (holding that the officer had no authority "to further detain" the driver when he noticed the temporary vehicle tag because he no longer had reasonable suspicion that she was engaged in criminal conduct and her compliance with the officer's request was not consensual); see also State v. Taber, 73 S.W.3d 699, 707 (Mo. App. W.D. 2002) (deciding that requesting the driver to provide her identification after the suspicions for the Terry stop had been eradicated constituted a seizure that required reasonable suspicion for the officer's actions to be justified).
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman Universitys School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    you are right. there are many varibles. yet show me a LEO that doesnt come off as a request. rather the later. demand. the verbage indicates the citizen has a choice to give up his ID. The simple question to the officer would be as fallows. : by what grounds have you stoped or asking me to give up my ID.? IM a strong opponent by making them answere my questions. A judge will hold them to the same standards of knowing the law and my civil rights. You know what happens to us if we are wrong. its a ride int the twinkie wagon. if they are wrong its complaints in the jackett. I have never denied them my ID. yet I am usually the first one to speak up and let them defend there actions vs. the other. Most every LEO I have encountered has been good. The best actions are to be polite. soup

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    LT. SOUP wrote:
    you are right. there are many varibles. yet show me a LEO that doesnt come off as a request. rather the later. demand. the verbage indicates the citizen has a choice to give up his ID.
    Exactly,

    While I have never been stopped when I was just walking down the street, I have a lead foot so I have visited with more than one officer in an official capacity

    Most if not all, and when I watch "cops" on tv, it looks as though most officers are trained to ask proper questions.

    "do you have you ID on you today sir?"

    At which point most citizens hand it to them or say no.

    Seems to me if you said yes, they would next say "may I see it please?" to which most folks will hand it over.

    I suppose one could very well respond NO to that question.

    If I opted for that, I would quickly add, "I have done nothing illegal and I will not be answering any more questions I am not required by law to answer."

    If you don't shut up at that point, your going to build PC and frankly as odd an occurrence as I would guess that is, it is going to be a 19.5 minute long delay in your detainment.

    Sometimes folks forget cops have rights too and they can ask you any question they like, you do not have to answer it, but they can ask em all day long.

    I think what they were clearly defining is that the officer may ask to see your id, your not showing it is not criminal, if the cop demands it stating you are required to do so, he crossed a line he is not allowed to cross.

    I have better ways to waste my time than making police officers lives a pain, if one ever tries to abuse his power with me, I will resist. Other than that, my usual interactions which are self provoked will remain as friendly and compliant as possible because ain't a one of them ever been pushing on the pedal on the right, that is always my fault.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman Universitys School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    I couldnt of said it better. you are right on all issues there in. that is how it should be done. I guess my main point was that one should know his rights, and the way you have spelled it out would clearly show the officer in a respectful manner that he wasnt engaging a sheeple. good job Troop. Soup.

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    IMO. I would first ask "have I done anything illegal or do you have a resonable justification for me to give identification?" If he/she awnsers, any awnser, I will Give them my ID. Just to avoid conflict.

    Yes, I understand it may be my right not to, but I don't want to b rude or act as if I am above the law. I have no reason not to give them my ID. However, I will not let them procede to disarm me or cuff me unless I am being detained or arrested. In that case, I would inform them that they may do as they wish because I know my rights and will say nothing more until I speak with my lawyer and in that case I am prepared to go as far as it takes to defend any loss of my rights during the scenario.

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    I have written to the AG....when (if) I get a response I will let you know...
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    I refused to provide an I.D. during an open carry stop at Wal-mart today. I could have pressed the issue but one of the officers threatened me so I pussyed out and produced.

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