FNG

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j2l3 wrote:

amzbrady wrote:

I was just wondering as I think back to the Katrina times when guns were being confiscated. If we were to have a major couple state catastrophy where our military was called in to keep order and cerfews were set and ordered to confiscate guns from citizens, "would you as an enlisted soldier, do it"? If you do than you go against our constitution, if you dont then you are in violation of a direct order and subject to a courtmarshell. I know this is a crappy question, but it is a real life scenerio, we saw if happen, and could very well happen again.

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Military people are not required to follow unlawful orders. In fact, following orders is not a defense if the order was not lawful.

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If the Government were to ever get that corrupt to begin with, then I wouldn't hold it past them to give unlawful orders

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The millitary isappointed to up hold the Constitution. Military personal can not follow orders they know arecontradictory to the Constitution. I know when I took my oath it said

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amzbrady wrote:

If we were to have a major couple state catastrophy where our military was called in to keep order and cerfews were set and ordered to confiscate guns from citizens, would you as an enlisted soldier, do it?

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Interesting topic drift, AMZ. In that vein, the following opinion piece caught my eye a few days ago:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100503_Nation_s_gun_cancer_spreads.html

It was particularly notable given that I'd recently read a comment somewhere (Sipsey Street, maybe?) observing that these days most Army officers and many enlisted don't even have an understanding of the Constitution, or their oath, that many thought they were swearing fidelity to the President rather than to the Constitution, and that WTP shouldn't count on them to be on our side if the Government gets overly oppressive. (I wish I'd grabbed a ref for that post at the time!)

Comments? (assuming anyone else wants to drag this thread even further afield from OC...)

And - Welcome Aboard, USMC1911!

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Its called THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.
As an example. (Hypothetical situation)
In the civilian community, one would not run directly into a gun fight. This does not make seance.
In my Marine Corp, If the order comes down our chain of command to do this, you do it. With fire in your eyes. (part of the reason the Marines are called DEVIL DOGS.)
PROVEN past tactical success had rationalized this action. (if this is what was deemed necessary by the higher ranks in the chain)
ALL service personnel are bound by the UCMJ. (Uniform Code Of Military Justice)
The Military's Law.
Like it or not, The President is our Commander and Chief. The top of the Chain.
Disobeying a command will subject you to the penalties, you agreed to, when you JOINED the service.( UCMJ )

Dave
Semper Fi. (always faithful)

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69Charger wrote:

Its called THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.
As an example. (Hypothetical situation)
In the civilian community, one would not run directly into a gun fight. This does not make seance.
In my Marine Corp, If the order comes down our chain of command to do this, you do it. With fire in your eyes. (part of the reason the Marines are called DEVIL DOGS.)
PROVEN past tactical success had rationalized this action. (if this is what was deemed necessary by the higher ranks in the chain)
ALL service personnel are bound by the UCMJ. (Uniformed Code Of Military Justice)
The Military's Law.
Like it or not, The President is our Commander and Chief. The top of the Chain.
Disobeying a command will subject you to the penalties, you agreed to, when you JOINED the service.( UCMJ )

Dave
Semper Fi. (always faithful)

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The president is comander in chief but he is not above the Constitution. As a duty to keep your oath you agreed on you must not follow orders if it is not within the guidlines of the constitution.

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Semper Paratus wrote:

69Charger wrote:

Its called THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.
As an example. (Hypothetical situation)
In the civilian community, one would not run directly into a gun fight. This does not make seance.
In my Marine Corp, If the order comes down our chain of command to do this, you do it. With fire in your eyes. (part of the reason the Marines are called DEVIL DOGS.)
PROVEN past tactical success had rationalized this action. (if this is what was deemed necessary by the higher ranks in the chain)
ALL service personnel are bound by the UCMJ. (Uniformed Code Of Military Justice)
The Military's Law.
Like it or not, The President is our Commander and Chief. The top of the Chain.
Disobeying a command will subject you to the penalties, you agreed to, when you JOINED the service.( UCMJ )

Dave
Semper Fi. (always faithful)

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The president is comander in chief but he is not above the Constitution. As a duty to keep your oath you agreed on you must not follow orders if it is not within the guidlines of the constitution.

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The Government sure thinks they're above the constitution by making and passing laws that are unconstitutional. They're going to keep doing it as long as nothing is done.

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One prob with that is that if you go against an ORDER, you are subject to the UCMJ. It would be a giant battle for you to convince them at your court marshal. And during this battle you would be locked in the brig. This is the military. A different mind set. They do not go against the Constitution. BUT. Questioning, arguing or trying to force an issue down there throat will only get you disciplined. Bringing a Question up, or your personal feeling, to your next up in the chain of command is the way to approach an issue. That is all you can really do without putting yourself in that position where you would be quickly subject to the UCMJ. And this is no guarantee that you wont have to deal with the reprecussions of your action, feeling, or rights. No matter how correct you are.
JMHO
Dave

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69Charger wrote:

One prob with that is that if you go against an ORDER, you are subject to the UCMJ. It would be a giant battle for you to convince them at your court marshal. And during this battle you would be locked in the brig. This is the military. A different mind set. They do not go against the Constitution. BUT. Questioning, arguing or trying to force an issue down there throat will only get you disciplined. Bringing a Question up, or your personal feeling, to your next up in the chain of command is the way to approach an issue. That is all you can really do without putting yourself in that position where you would be quickly subject to the UCMJ. And this is no guarantee that you wont have to deal with the reprecussions of your action, feeling, or rights. No matter how correct you are.
JMHO
Dave

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Just hire an O.J. Simpson level attorney.

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Aaron1124 wrote:

j2l3 wrote:

amzbrady wrote:

I was just wondering as I think back to the Katrina times when guns were being confiscated. If we were to have a major couple state catastrophy where our military was called in to keep order and cerfews were set and ordered to confiscate guns from citizens, "would you as an enlisted soldier, do it"? If you do than you go against our constitution, if you dont then you are in violation of a direct order and subject to a courtmarshell. I know this is a crappy question, but it is a real life scenerio, we saw if happen, and could very well happen again.

Click to expand...

Military people are not required to follow unlawful orders. In fact, following orders is not a defense if the order was not lawful.

Click to expand...

If the Government were to ever get that corrupt to begin with, then I wouldn't hold it past them to give unlawful orders

Click to expand...

This is what made me ask the question. The fact that in a way it has already happened and pretty recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&feature=related

I still cant believe that the guard entered people houses with guns drawn and told them to leave and confiscated their weapons.

This guy was definitly uncomfortable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tbp1hERZjI&feature=related

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If there were ever circumstances where the government ordered this, I'm pretty sure it'd be the BATFE involved in the gun raids rather than the military. Just my thoughts though.

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amzbrady wrote:

Aaron1124 wrote:

j2l3 wrote:

amzbrady wrote:

I was just wondering as I think back to the Katrina times when guns were being confiscated. If we were to have a major couple state catastrophy where our military was called in to keep order and cerfews were set and ordered to confiscate guns from citizens, "would you as an enlisted soldier, do it"? If you do than you go against our constitution, if you dont then you are in violation of a direct order and subject to a courtmarshell. I know this is a crappy question, but it is a real life scenerio, we saw if happen, and could very well happen again.

Click to expand...

Military people are not required to follow unlawful orders. In fact, following orders is not a defense if the order was not lawful.

Click to expand...

If the Government were to ever get that corrupt to begin with, then I wouldn't hold it past them to give unlawful orders

Click to expand...

This is what made me ask the question. The fact that in a way it has already happened and pretty recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&feature=related

I still cant believe that the guard entered people houses with guns drawn and told them to leave and confiscated their weapons.

This guy was definitly uncomfortable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tbp1hERZjI&feature=related

Click to expand...

Felt bad for the last guy. He acted as if he were afraid of getting in trouble if he said anything "out of line" so to speak.

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Aaron1124 wrote:

amzbrady wrote:

Aaron1124 wrote:

j2l3 wrote:

amzbrady wrote:

I was just wondering as I think back to the Katrina times when guns were being confiscated. If we were to have a major couple state catastrophy where our military was called in to keep order and cerfews were set and ordered to confiscate guns from citizens, "would you as an enlisted soldier, do it"? If you do than you go against our constitution, if you dont then you are in violation of a direct order and subject to a courtmarshell. I know this is a crappy question, but it is a real life scenerio, we saw if happen, and could very well happen again.

Click to expand...

Military people are not required to follow unlawful orders. In fact, following orders is not a defense if the order was not lawful.

Click to expand...

If the Government were to ever get that corrupt to begin with, then I wouldn't hold it past them to give unlawful orders

Click to expand...

This is what made me ask the question. The fact that in a way it has already happened and pretty recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&feature=related

I still cant believe that the guard entered people houses with guns drawn and told them to leave and confiscated their weapons.

This guy was definitly uncomfortable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tbp1hERZjI&feature=related

Click to expand...

Felt bad for the last guy. He acted as if he were afraid of getting in trouble if he said anything "out of line" so to speak.

Click to expand...

Thats why in my origanal post I didnt expect currently enlisted, to answer. Just wanted peoples thoughts on this. I would think it would be justified to shoot an intruder, breaking into my house with a weapon drawn, but, what would the ramifications be from shooting a national guard.

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amzbrady wrote:

Aaron1124 wrote:

amzbrady wrote:

Aaron1124 wrote:

j2l3 wrote:

amzbrady wrote:

I was just wondering as I think back to the Katrina times when guns were being confiscated. If we were to have a major couple state catastrophy where our military was called in to keep order and cerfews were set and ordered to confiscate guns from citizens, "would you as an enlisted soldier, do it"? If you do than you go against our constitution, if you dont then you are in violation of a direct order and subject to a courtmarshell. I know this is a crappy question, but it is a real life scenerio, we saw if happen, and could very well happen again.

Click to expand...

Military people are not required to follow unlawful orders. In fact, following orders is not a defense if the order was not lawful.

Click to expand...

If the Government were to ever get that corrupt to begin with, then I wouldn't hold it past them to give unlawful orders

Click to expand...

This is what made me ask the question. The fact that in a way it has already happened and pretty recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&feature=related

I still cant believe that the guard entered people houses with guns drawn and told them to leave and confiscated their weapons.

This guy was definitly uncomfortable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tbp1hERZjI&feature=related

Click to expand...

Felt bad for the last guy. He acted as if he were afraid of getting in trouble if he said anything "out of line" so to speak.

Click to expand...

Thats why in my origanal post I didnt expect currently enlisted, to answer. Just wanted peoples thoughts on this. I would think it would be justified to shoot an intruder, breaking into my house with a weapon drawn, but, what would the ramifications be from shooting a national guard.

Click to expand...

I may be mistaken, but probably the same as shooting the police. It sucks man. I just watched the other two videos you posted, and it makes me sick. You can tell the officers and soldiers (at least the ones who were interviewed) didn't feel comfortable carrying out the orders. I mean, what can you do? You get the national guard and the SWAT team showing up at your door step, armed with major fire power. What are you going to do? The moment you draw a firearm, you'll have 100 rounds through your body.

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Semper Paratus wrote:

The millitary is appointed to up hold the Constitution. Military personal can not follow orders they know are contradictory to the Constitution. I know when I took my oath it said

I, (name), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
​

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+1 on that. I know if I follow that through my life, I will make the right decisions.

Completely OT, but I'll bite.
The disarming in America must have been really hard. I was under the sea, so really had no idea what was going on until it already happened. There seemed to be a bit of younger and headstrong soldiers and police doing it. I don't know, but It seems from other stories the actions of some were slipped in.
The last video on the end seemed like the Marine in it didn't know it happened. He states, "I hope not in my lifetime" towards the end. This would be a very hard issue in a place as crowded as here. If your only means of self defense was in jeopardy knowing there were still others that would hurt you to take your things, what would you do? Perhaps a better ? is, how have you prepared for it? (btw, don't answer that)
et: correct spelling