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Thread: open carry for protection or a reason to sue...

  1. #1
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    i know and understand the rights to open carry. the more i read the posts on this website, the more i think, most (not all) open carriers seem to be instigating and daring somone/authority to give them trouble. in turn OC'ing is portrayed as a negative "nah-nah na boo boo look what i can do" demonstration. grow up! eduacate and dont be a when aproached by leo's or civilians and maybe then the community of OC'ers will gain more head way. in my mind if you cant carry a gun openly without getting defensive with an officer who wonders why your carrying a gun on your hip while walking down the street, then you should probably stick with concealed or better yet buy a can of mase look at the nozzel and spray it into your own eye....cops deal with crime everyday, when they arecalled on a man with a gun call, they should and have to assume you could be a threat, if you cooperate spend a few minites with them, you will quickly dissolve the thoughts of you being a bad guy...just a thought give it a try or keep being bozo's and keep the OC'ing community in the negative light...

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    Just about every storyI have ever heard about (orbeen party to)police interaction while open carry basically consisted of a cop telling someone they don't have the right to open carry, are breaking a law, are stupid, reckless, dangerous, will probably end up shot by a cop (and be justified in doing so),can't open carry if they have a concealed carry lisc, and the entire time they are more often than not very un-professional and rude. If not down right threatening.I am sorry, but with all the negative run-ins with police most of us have had, or will have (again), justify our defensive posture towards police and mis-informed members of public. By the way, if a police officer violates my rights because he or she does not know the law (which I think is a pretty big deal, seeing as how one of the first things I think police should be taught is whether or not people are actually allowed to be armed), then you can bet your ass I will take legal and civil action. Withyour rationale, Blacks should not have staged sit ins, or marches to protest inequality or unfair treatment. I will NOT leave my fire-arm at home just because some keystone cop might give me a hard time. Just as a black man shouldn't"t have to drink from adifferent water fountain because he might beworried of what others would say or do. We are breaking no laws, and putting no one in harm's way. You don't have to like the way someone does something, but to say the progress of open carry rights, or second amendment rights in general are being done a disservice by any of us law abiding citizens is ludicrous. Stop and think about it. Maybe its people like you, who do the most harm. Posts like yours are the reason most people think we are all a bunch of nuts who can't be trusted with a weapon. Especially because you claim to be one of us. Think about it. And have a nice day.

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    Now THAT.. was a helluva 1st post..

    -Adam

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    The best way to educate an under educated society is by being a good teacher, a "defensive posture" towards police while toting a pistol on your hip, HAS to result in an offensive posture by police. My main point to all this is, all the videos i see, stories i read, people get overly defensive and that seems to escelate the situation. If a cop is a , show them your ID, inform them of open carry laws and ask them check the law. Wheather wrong or right on their part no ground will be gained by trying to slap the laws in a cops face. I am an avid hunter, visit the pistol range weekly and could build an adobe village with all the clays i shoot on the weekends,i love guns,was raised around guns, and brought up with the teachings of gun responcibilitys, but we need to face the facts, some people do not like guns, get nervous seeing guns and detest the thought of people carrying them around "wild-west" style. If these people see you on the side of the road arguing with some cop thats its your right, and you dont need to show them any ID and generaly giving them a hard time in a "defensive posture" their thaughts on guns will remain the same and continue feeling uneasy about guns. Also if we want to get the race argument going Martin Luther didnt stand at a podium with his finger in some cops face bitching and yelling giveus dem' rights' and sum equality treatments. he spoke as an eduacated man ... "The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the African American community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people. For many of our white brothers as evidenced by their presence here today have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny and they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone."... unless you sat down with a thesourus and felt like this post was directed at you. you will see how this quote is quite parrallel to my theory... OCer's are the blacks. we too have a dream... walk freely down the street with our side arm,free from harrassment and judgement, the rights and laws are in place, but we will NOT acheive our goals through defense,i personally just think an educated offense would work better...think about it. and have a nice day.

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    joejoe0621 wrote:
    i know and understand the rights to open carry. the more i read the posts on this website, the more i think, most (not all) open carriers seem to be instigating and daring somone/authority to give them trouble. in turn OC'ing is portrayed as a negative "nah-nah na boo boo look what i can do" demonstration. grow up! eduacate and dont be a dick when aproached by leo's or civilians and maybe then the community of OC'ers will gain more head way. in my mind if you cant carry a gun openly without getting defensive with an officer who wonders why your carrying a gun on your hip while walking down the street, then you should probably stick with concealed or better yet buy a can of mase look at the nozzel and spray it into your own eye....cops deal with crime everyday, when they arecalled on a man with a gun call, they should and have to assume you could be a threat, if you cooperate spend a few minites with them, you will quickly dissolve the thoughts of you being a bad guy...just a thought give it a try or keep being bozo's and keep the OC'ing community in the negative light...
    We have had members thrown in jail for legally carrying. They tried to reason with the LEO's. In some instances, the LEO's even tried to "find something" on them, this happened with MEM in Louisiana. Others have beent threatened with illegally concealing when they were carrying openly because the LEO's realized that they messed up.

    If you spent more than 2 seconds on this board you would realize that you are talking complete nonsense. So please go chastise somewhere else.

    Let us know how the "educating" process turns out. Good luck

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    I joined the Marine corps. two weeks after I graduated high school, served Honorably,became a Weapons and Tactics Instructor, an Un-armed self Defense Instructor (Marine Corps. Martial Arts), Became a Corrections Officer when I got home from Iraq, and am now enrolled in O.S.U. Full time. Yes i quit a 19 dollar an hour job to better my education.I have also been raised around guns and taught to respect them. Now that we have gotten our background stories out of the way, this is my response to you:

    Martin Luther King Jr. did not just "stand at a podium." And he surely didn't say "gimmie dem rights", or what ever other vaguely racist comment you made.He participated in marches, sit ins and other civil demonstrations (which, by the way I feel I am doing every time I go outside with my side arm, because of the negativity second amendment rights have been looked upon with). He also had a lengthy arrest record, because he DIDN'T just sit around and "educate." Mr. King took to the streets, and did not go out of his way to avoid conflict when a police officer or citizen told him he was wrong. In fact, almost every major civil rights leaderin history has had trouble with authority figures in their time and geographic location. Probably because you can't change social norms with a calm voice.And to reference another historic event, if more people had questioned and challenged the Gestapo or S.S., maybe so many people wouldn't have had to die just because the Government or the police could intimidate people into doing what they wanted. To be quite honest, most of us on this site are more knowledgeable in regards to the state laws than most officers of the law I have come into contact with. Thats a lot of officers, considering almost every time I have the opporunity, I ask an officer what information he has on these laws. In short, if we are not willing to prove to eveyone who doesn'texercise their constitutional rightswhatwe believe theyare worth (a clean arrest record, my freedom, even my life), then why SHOULD they care? Think about that. Really sit down, and think about it. Have a nice day.

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    Ignorance of the law is no excuse for us, Why should it be any different for a LEO?

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    xD.45Service wrote:
    Ignorance of the law is no excuse for us, Why should it be any different for a LEO?
    or for anyone who dials 911 to report MWAG on a law-abiding OCer...

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    First off... Gentlemen please trying using some puncuation and paragraphs.. it's really hard to read and follow your train of thought without it.

    Second..... It's a citizens DUTY... to test it's government. To make sure this government isn't overstepping it's bounds.

    It's already been mentioned, but not knowing the law is not adefense. This should apply even more to someone who's job is to enforce those laws. So if we don't test these people from time to time, then we as CITIZENS are not doing our job.

    We don't have to be harsh about it, but unfortunely some Cities and their LEO's think they are the law. You will find that in most cases our members have tried to nicely present these issues, and have been basically slapped in the face.

    The Law Enforcement Agency's of this country are very well aware of this now. It's been in the news, newspapers and though our members personal contacts.

    My lawsuit against the City of Englewood is a prime example. The City knew about the law, but did no traing of their officers prior to or after the incident. They didn't want to hear about it, because they didn't like it.

    So the Get in Their Face attitude was brought on by themselfs. We have tried for several years now to get them to train, but we keep running into thisagressive attitude from the police, so they gettingit in return.

    We are tired of trying to be the nice guys.

    Make the LEO's step up and get the training and do their jobs.







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    Martin Luther King Jr. did not just "stand at a podium." And he surely didn't say "gimmie dem rights", or what ever other vaguely racist comment you made.
    Martin Luther didnt stand at a podium with his finger in some cops face bitching and yelling giveus dem' rights' and sum equality treatments. he spoke as an eduacated man ...

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    I probably wont reply to anymore posts on this topic, seeing as how its basically turned into a ******* match. I have been keeping tabs on these forums for quite some time for entertainment, ive read and watched plenty of these videos, ranging from some guy acting like a huge with his cell phone in some cops face. to some guy wanting to tote his ar-15 slung around his back... I think ill just keep my gun under my shirt and avoid some rookie blowing my head of for thinking im kidnapping my son...thanks for the insight and your opinions....i hope you all have peaceful encounters and stay out of harms way...

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    Well thank you. And same to you. Have a nice day.

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    joejoe0621 wrote:
    I probably wont reply to anymore posts on this topic, seeing as how its basically turned into a ******* match. I have been keeping tabs on these forums for quite some time for entertainment, ive read and watched plenty of these videos, ranging from some guy acting like a huge with his cell phone in some cops face. to some guy wanting to tote his ar-15 slung around his back... I think ill just keep my gun under my shirt and avoid some rookie blowing my head of for thinking im kidnapping my son...thanks for the insight and your opinions....i hope you all have peaceful encounters and stay out of harms way...
    This is not a contest/match of any type. It is is where different ideas, opinions and experiences are shared. If you are not willing to keep an open mind, then you waste your time and ours.

    Extreme behaviors or attitudes demonstrated by a small minority are not representative of the whole any more than one reckless driver is emblematic of all who are licensed.

    Most here recognize that nothing is often settled favorably with having a roadside debate whether for a traffic infraction or for having a gun on your person, there is a better time and place.

    When a LEA or individual LEO will not follow the laws first we try to educate, inform and seek their cooperation. When all else fails or when the act has been egregious enough, using our legal system is frequently the only means.

    Surely, you would not suggest to this forum that capitulating or giving in to illegal demands, refusal by those in power to follow the laws or the like is beneficial to anyone - such perpetuates a broken system.

    Most posters will tell you they don't care how you carry (OC or CC) as long as you do it responsibly. We do not attack CCers for their choice.

    How much do you fear that if a rookie LEO sees your CCd pistol, he will think you are kidnapping your son and blow your head off? Really! Not only is that a cheap shot, it is garbage.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    joejoe0621 wrote:
    i know and understand the rights to open carry. the more i read the posts on this website, the more i think..
    Actually, it sounds like you didn't apply much, if any,critical thinking.

    … eduacate and dont be a when aproached by leo's
    A police officer shouldn’t be approaching someone merely for open carry. The law has specific requirements as to when an officer can detain a person, and one of those is ‘reasonable articulable suspicion’ that he is involved in a crime. Open carry is lawful, thus it does not meet the conditions under the law for seizure by the police. Law is something that everyone must obey, including the police. If a police officer seizes someone for open carry, absent some real criminal element, then the officer is the one breaking the law. Lawbreakers need to be punished. It is not my duty to educate the police department, that’s why they have training departments and instructors.

    …in my mind if you cant carry a gun openly without getting defensive with an officer who wonders why your carrying a gun on your hip while walking down the street…
    As mentioned above, the officer has no business wondering why I’m carrying a firearm. It is simply none of his or her business. My carry of a firearm is no more the business of the police than my carry of a Bible or a glass of water. Some citizens, patriots really, do not freely sacrifice their rights to entertain the government. When the government does overstep its limitations, patriots are rightly offended. It isn’t, as you falsely assume, defensiveness- it’s offense.


    …just a thought give it a try or keep being bozo's and keep the OC'ing community in the negative light...
    [/quote]
    Every day that I step out my front door with an openly carried firearm I am casting open carry in a positive light. My behavior, demeanor, and attitude reflect my sincerity and patriotism. If an officer demands to see my ID, CPL, or just to tell him my name, I will politely refuse. That also speaks positively of open carry. Why? Because I am obeying the laws of the land, and I am displaying my expectation that he or she do the same.

    If I were you I would invest some time and money into learning the language of the country in which you live. Nothing says ‘Bozo’ more than atrocious spelling, punctuation, and grammar.



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    i think its halarious that i have got 2 post in subject to my punctuation and spelling and so on... would anyone else prefer i double space, indent, have a title? i know i suck at spelling and my run-on sentences are much with little space between. i simply dont care, i write too many essays in college ( one of which spoke of the importance of being able tocarry a gunon college campuses and got a 97 on before revision)....sorry to everyone, didnt know i was being graded :-)

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    joejoe0621 wrote:
    i think its halarious that i have got 2 post in subject to my punctuation and spelling and so on... would anyone else prefer i double space, indent, have a title? i know i suck at spelling and my run-on sentences are much with little space between. i simply dont care, i write too many essays in college ( one of which spoke of the importance of being able tocarry a gunon college campuses and got a 97 on before revision)....sorry to everyone, didnt know i was being graded :-)
    You're not being graded Joe, its just much easier to read and understand what is being posted when fundamental writing rules are observed. It is not a personal thing.

    When someone says "I simply don't care," the reader has been informed that they are not a valid consideration.

    BTW - OCDO has a built in spell-check function. Misspelled words will be underlined in red as you type. Just right click on the underlined word and options will appear.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Most of the folks you refer to are Hoplophobic, by definition cannot be educated or reasoned with. Just as some are afraid of heights, spiders, snakes or clowns. Some have a fear of inanimate objects like chainsaws, knives, guns, tools or whatever. You can not talk them out of it, they're just scared.

    Would you refuse totake your dog for a walk because someone may be scared of it?

    If a person works construction should he hide his tool belt?

    We don't just defend gun rights here, we defend all rights. Speech, Privacy, whatever. So when a leo starts to harassing of course we refuse to answer Q's.

    When I was 18 I lived in Fairborn, OH. I had a number of vehicles stolen from me by the same guy. I had the police go with me to pick up one of them. The officer told me to sign the title over to the thief or he would arrest me, charge me with title fraud, and I'd be looking at like 15yrs. Being young and ignorant I signed it, and moved to Alabama before Iwould end up killingthe guy. Needless to say I don't view them in a positive light. I can't think of one time they helped, and there are a lot of run-ins I've had with them, none of which i was even carrying. (it was before my awakening)

    I'm not a big fan of suing thecity, end result is higher taxes! Sue the tyrannical pigs responsible and charge them as criminals!

    I hate the term "wild west", that is straight out of Hollywood. Anyone that knows history, knows that the way it's portrayed is ridiculous at best.

    We are writing here, not talking soit's hard to tell when someone is being rude, sarcastic, funny, or whatnot. Hang in there Joe, these people got a lot to offer. Try using a few more "Emoticons"...it helps.

    Hope this has been helpful!


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    steveman01 wrote:
    When I was 18 I lived in Fairborn, OH. I had a number of vehicles stolen from me by the same guy. I had the police go with me to pick up one of them. The officer told me to sign the title over to the thief or he would arrest me, charge me with title fraud, and I'd be looking at like 15yrs. Being young and ignorant I signed it...
    WTF?

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    marshaul wrote:
    WTF?
    That's what I said to the cop when he first told me to sign it. But realised he wasn't joking after getting cuffed and stuffed in the car. I figuredthe truck wasn't worth it .It's a long story...(not the only one either) and don't like thinking bout it. I was young&dumb. Nothing like living under a bunch of tyrant's. I would advise staying away from the Dayton/Cincinnati area!

    Now I say give me liberty or give me death!!!!!

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    steveman01 wrote:
    When I was 18 I lived in Fairborn, OH. I had a number of vehicles stolen from me by the same guy. I had the police go with me to pick up one of them. The officer told me to sign the title over to the thief or he would arrest me, charge me with title fraud, and I'd be looking at like 15yrs. Being young and ignorant I signed it...
    WTF?
    Didn't even want to ask. :?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Does it really matter if some OCers are looking for a lawsuit?

    Doing so doesn't constitute an act of aggression, as the police are always free to, you know, respect the constitutional rights they are obligated to respect.

    There is legal and illegal, aggressive and non-aggressive. It seems to me that trolling for lawsuits is neither aggressive nor illegal (so long as your lawsuits aren't frivolous), and so it's as perfectly valid a reason to exercise the freedom of open carry as is self-defense.

    Hell, since it is a freedom and a right, I don't even need a damn reason. I can do it because I felt pink today. Having a good reason, like trying to keep the police in line, seems eminently reasonable to me.

    In fact, it strikes me as far more reasonable than posting threads questioning the judgement of others in exercising their rights. It's our *right*; you have no call to be concerned or to question it until it becomes illegal or aggressive.

    I don't like rap music, but nobody here would be impressed if I posted threads pondering whether rap music was art or merely "trolling for money". For, while rap may be both or neither, I have no cause to be concerned with how others non-aggressively exercise their freedoms in the first place.

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    imamember wrote:
    .......(which, by the way I feel I am doing every time I go outside with my side arm, because of the negativity second amendment rights have been looked upon with). .....
    I also feel this way. Well said.
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

    --Robert A. Heinlein

    Hey NSA! *&$# you. Record this--- MOLON LABE!

  23. #23
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    joejoe0621 wrote:
    I probably wont reply to anymore posts on this topic, seeing as how its basically turned into a ******* match. I have been keeping tabs on these forums for quite some time for entertainment, ive read and watched plenty of these videos, ranging from some guy acting like a huge with his cell phone in some cops face. to some guy wanting to tote his ar-15 slung around his back... I think ill just keep my gun under my shirt and avoid some rookie blowing my head of for thinking im kidnapping my son...thanks for the insight and your opinions....i hope you all have peaceful encounters and stay out of harms way...
    This is not a contest/match of any type. It is is where different ideas, opinions and experiences are shared. If you are not willing to keep an open mind, then you waste your time and ours.

    Extreme behaviors or attitudes demonstrated by a small minority are not representative of the whole any more than one reckless driver is emblematic of all who are licensed.

    Most here recognize that nothing is often settled favorably with having a roadside debate whether for a traffic infraction or for having a gun on your person, there is a better time and place.

    When a LEA or individual LEO will not follow the laws first we try to educate, inform and seek their cooperation. When all else fails or when the act has been egregious enough, using our legal system is frequently the only means.

    Surely, you would not suggest to this forum that capitulating or giving in to illegal demands, refusal by those in power to follow the laws or the like is beneficial to anyone - such perpetuates a broken system.

    Most posters will tell you they don't care how you carry (OC or CC) as long as you do it responsibly. We do not attack CCers for their choice.

    How much do you fear that if a rookie LEO sees your CCd pistol, he will think you are kidnapping your son and blow your head off? Really! Not only is that a cheap shot, it is garbage.

    Yata hey
    Grape,this is just wonderfully, sensibly,written. Kudos!
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

    --Robert A. Heinlein

    Hey NSA! *&$# you. Record this--- MOLON LABE!

  24. #24
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    joejoe0621 wrote:
    ive read and watched plenty of these videos, ranging from some guy acting like a huge with his cell phone in some cops face. to some guy wanting to tote his ar-15 slung around his back... I think ill just keep my gun under my shirt.
    May I ask what problem you have with someone "wanting to tote his ar-15 sung around his back"?

    I don't care what kind of weapon someone chooses to carry, as long as they have one. Most carry for that "just in case" reason. I would hate to be the one to harp on someone for choosing a certain weapon then have to ask them for cover-fire the day it's needed. Plus, one more man OC'n a gun makes it all the more common, right? Isn't that what it's all about.

    If your reason for CC'n is that you don't want do get shot then you might want to watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTe8M10aQeA

    Although the vid is based more around racism it still fits for all. Let's face it someone CC'n is twice as likely to have to use it than someone OC'n. I don't care how or what, just as long as your armed and not a hoplophobe. For that I thank you.

    Enjoy!

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    Though I think education is a great thing in regards to OC, I have no problem whatsoever with those who choose to challenge LEOs at the threat of a lawsuit.

    If a LEO doesn't want to get wrapped up in this, than they should just act legally and appropriately when dealing with people. Too often they use their position of power to trample on people's rights or simply just intimidate them. When they do this, I think its a good thing that they be held accountable if applicable. Its really their choice and no different than a LEO setting up a sting operation to trap a citizen.

    Who is there to police the police? That job shouldn't be left completely in the hands of other LEOs. Its ultimately the citizens' responsibility.

    Just as we all are responsible for making our own choices when we run afoul of the law, its also any LEOs choice as well. If they are simply uneducated or flat out abusive and corrupt, they need to be turned around and lead in the right direction or even punished if it warrants. Sometimes the most and only effective means to do this, is through a court of law.

    I have no problems with anyone setting a LEO up for a potential legal fall if that officer is stupid enough to bite. Likewise, I don't mind a random person being caughtfor thievery through a sting operation. In both casesits their own individual choice to cross that line and both need to be held accountable for that.

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