• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Why you don't take a beer bottle to a gun fight...

TraumaRN

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
82
Location
Central Virginia
imported post

Quick question for the group: had the "good guy" been armed, with current laws, would he have had to engage the robber verbally first (gun drawn and ready) or could he have ended the scenario from the blindside.

Simply, would you be legally justified in shooting the bad guy from the blindside or must you first engage him and have the threat be turned on yourself?
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

TraumaRN wrote:
Quick question for the group: had the "good guy" been armed, with current laws, would he have had to engage the robber verbally first (gun drawn and ready) or could he have ended the scenario from the blindside.

Simply, would you be legally justified in shooting the bad guy from the blindside or must you first engage him and have the threat be turned on yourself?
That would be a good question for User. I have wondered this myself. Of particular interest, you couldn't really tell from the video, but interviews with the clerk confirmed that the robber had fired the gun toward her feet prior to the bottle bop.

I would be interested in the answer to this question from both perspectives... if or if not the robber had first fired the weapon.

TFred
 

PT111

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
2,243
Location
, South Carolina, USA
imported post

TraumaRN wrote:
Quick question for the group: had the "good guy" been armed, with current laws, would he have had to engage the robber verbally first (gun drawn and ready) or could he have ended the scenario from the blindside.

Simply, would you be legally justified in shooting the bad guy from the blindside or must you first engage him and have the threat be turned on yourself?

From my understanding of the law in South Carolina, may not apply anywhere else, from two different CWP classes is that in such as case as you describe the "Alter Ego" principle is applicable. What this means and the almost exact same scenario was used in the classed is that you can place yourself in the shoes of the clerk and act as if you were the clerk.

To put it plainly you are in the back of the store and see the clerk being robbed at gun point. The clerk is in great danger of being shot and in fear of his life and would be fully justified under castle doctrine to shoot the robber. Since the clerk is justified in shooting the dirtbag you can take him out from behind without saying a word.

So if the "good guy" had been armed he could have save the courts lots of time and money, saved himself from having to visit the doctor and rid the world of one more dirtbag with no legal problems. IANAL and this is just what I was taught in CWP class for SC. YMMV
 

kennys

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2009
Messages
521
Location
Ruther Glen Va
imported post

This place is in the path to and from work for me. I stop there from time to time always carrying. Not that I ever want to take someone out if it can be avoided, but had he had timed it different with me being there he might not have been so fortunate to get away. However I wouldn't have been so lucky either with the legal aftermath, confiscation of weapon as evidence and other things.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

ProShooter wrote:
I would have belted him with a 2 liter bottle of coke. I think that would have rung his bell!
The dude had a seriously hard head... did you see the video? The bottle broke, and gushed all over his head, and he still turned around and got 4 shots off.

I would think one of those plastic 2 liters would have just bounced... although the extra weight might have knocked him off balance more.

TFred
 

Virginiaplanter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
402
Location
, ,
imported post

3949222134_2317137d43.jpg
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

TFred wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
I would have belted him with a 2 liter bottle of coke. I think that would have rung his bell!
SNIP The dude had a seriously hard head... did you see the video? The bottle broke, and gushed all over his head, and he still turned around and got 4 shots off.
I wonder if the badguy was on drugs?

I've read in self-defense articles and books that PCP will make a badguy nearly impervious to pain. I would think cocaine or crack might do the same. I wonder if meth has that effect?
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

Good article in the local paper today about him.

TFred

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2010/052010/05232010/550115

Man refused to do nothing
May 23, 2010 12:36 am

Theodore Edmond, 61, struck the gunman with a bottle of beer during a robbery attempt in Caroline on May 8.

BY PORTSIA SMITH

A former Marine, Theodore Edmond served two tours in Vietnam and suffered only a scar on his chest from a barbed-wire fence.

It wasn't until the 61-year-old Maryland man made a routine fuel stop in Caroline County two weeks ago that he received war-like wounds.

Edmond, nationally recognized as a good Samaritan, was shot four times when he struck a gunman in the head with a bottle of Yuengling beer during a robbery attempt at a Carmel Church gas station.

While he has been praised by the cashier whose life he possibly saved, he has been teased by his close friends and relatives.

"They told me if I had been a drinker, I would have known to grab a 40-ounce," he laughed in an exclusive interview with The Free Lance-Star. "I told them the next time I need to hit someone with a beer bottle, I'll call them first for a brand recommendation."

But when he walked into the Mr. Fuel gas station on the night of May 8, it was no laughing matter.

He said he walked right past the gunman who was pointing what looked like a toy gun in the face of the frightened cashier.

"It looked like a plastic revolver you play cowboys and Indians with," Edmond said.

He said he tried to find something heavy to use as a weapon, as the frustrated gunman raised his voice at the woman, who couldn't get the register open. Then he heard two loud bangs from the gun. It was no toy.

He assumed the cashier was dead and, running out of time, grabbed the first thing he could get his hands on--a plastic bottle. Then he saw the Yuenglings.

Edmond said he was happy to see that the cashier was alive, as he crept up behind the man, whose voice was getting louder and louder. The first shots were intended as a warning, but he figured the next one would be fatal.

"There's no way I'm going to stand around and watch him murder this lady," Edmond said. "That's what I couldn't understand about the other people who were in there. I just know I could not look in the mirror if I had just stood there and did nothing while he shot that lady. I did what I had to do."

Edmond swung with one arm and hit the would-be robber in the back of the head before the two struggled.

Edmond fell to the floor, and the gunman stood over him and shot him four times, striking him in the head, shoulder and both legs.

"I don't know why I'm not dead," he said. "I didn't feel anything,"

He said he thought the gunman had missed until he tried to stand up and noticed that his left leg wasn't working the way it was supposed to. And that's when he realized that all of the blood on the floor was his.

When he did manage to stand, he saw the gunman down on his knees in the parking lot.

"There were all these people out there looking at him, and they let him just get away," he said.

Edmond was later transported to Mary Washington Hospital. He was released the next day.

Edmond said he knew he was in good hands when he learned that the man taking care of him in the hospital's trauma center was Michael DiSimone, a physician's assistant who had served in combat overseas.

DiSimone told him there would be more damage done by removing the bullets, and he suggested they not be moved.

Edmond has been recovering at home, and said the ordeal has set him back about three weeks, and he has a slight limp.

"It just felt like I over-exercised," he said.

Edmond said he stopped in Caroline after working on his aunt's summer house in North Carolina. He was headed back to Maryland, he said, because his wife was preparing for a vacation and needed to get to the train station.

He stopped at Mr. Fuel, as he usually does about three or four times a week during hunting season, because "they have the best fuel price."

He said he still hasn't seen the surveillance video but would probably get around to watching it this week.

He hadn't planned to talk publicly about the event until his 83-year-old mother and his aunt told him that they saw on TV that the cashier wanted to meet him and thank him for saving her life.

If he could relive that day, Edmond said, he wouldn't do anything differently--except he would use a tire iron instead of a beer bottle.

"You can't go through life being afraid," he said. "I'm surprised nobody had a gun to quickly resolve the situation. Could have saved the county some money for a trial."

Warren Harold Brown, 31, and Winston Sylvester Oliver II, 32, both of Richmond, were arrested last week in connection with the incident. They have been charged with attempted capital murder, aggravated malicious wounding, attempted robbery and the use of a firearm in the commission of a felony. They will appear in Caroline County Circuit Court on June 25.

When asked what he would say to the two men responsible for the bullets that are still in his body, Edmond said: "With that type of individual, a mammal I call them, it's nothing you can say. They think they know everything, and you'll be wasting your breath."

"Throw them in jail and throw the key away," he said.

Portsia Smith: 540/374-5419
Email: psmith@fredericksburg.com
 
Last edited:
Top