I HATE GUNS.

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Hunterdave wrote:

You are confusing left - right with Rep - Dem.
You are right about the 2 party system, but
left and right are absolutes!
left= socialist, communist =enslavement
right= democracy,republics=Liberty
It's leftist infusion that has given us liberty lite!

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This, despite what others might say, is a useful paradigm. (Paradigms, by definition cannot be true or false.) On the left, I see Liberty being restricted for the common good (i.e. health care). On the right, I see Liberty being used to allow folks to create the common good. I would put democracy towards the left. In a democratic society (we were never intended to be a democracy), the majority can impose its will on the minority, regardless of rights. We are a republic, a government of law, federally constructed, with limited enumerated powers, and with the protections of rights built into the founding documents.

That's as far-right as any government has been in the history of the world.

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There is only Tyranny and Liberty. Comparing left and right to tyranny and liberty is like comparing apples and oranges. Too far down eitherpath (left or right)and you have tyranny.



Tyranny is still tyranny no matter how far it tips the scale; No matter if it's left or right.

Of, or relating to tyranny or a tyrant; Despotic, oppressive or authoritarian, arbitrary exercise of authority.

Liberty is still liberty no matter how far it tips the scale; No matter if it's left or right.

Autonomy: immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence

Anything going in one direction is getting further away from the other.


These Liberal V. Conservative, Left V. Right threads crop up from time to time. I dug this one up. Just ignore the banned users and the ones with obvious bias and it's a good read on the same subject matter.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=29865&forum_id=65&highlight=tyranny+liberty+brass+magnet

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SouthernBoy wrote:

Actually, a large percentage of the members of this site would be classified as liberals; Classic Liberals. The definition of a Classic Liberal is best made by reviewing the stance of most of the Founding Fathers. They were Classic Liberals. The Classic Liberal is a far cry from what has come to stand in current vernacular as a "liberal". Classic Liberals may best be defined by what today we would call Constitutionalists. Present day liberal ideology stems from the progressive movement of the early 20th century which was more in line with socialist beliefs.

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This.

Unfortunately, as neither "side" of the paradigm of partisan political thought reflects these views, I have been forced to reject this paradigm.

I refuse to associate myself with the modern "left" or the modern "right".

What really pisses me off is when people equate classically liberal with "conservative". Modern day mainstream conservatism isn't remotely classically liberal, and I refuse to identify with it.

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I don't know about anyone else but I refuse to be put into any "box". I think for myself and I don't give two farts in the wind about any labels... political or otherwise.

I am me...

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All political thought and issues fall on a plane , either center, left of center or right of center. You may not be able to pinpoint where you fall as a whole on that plane,
but each position you hold falls on that plane.

Classic liberal falls right of center, without a doubt. Our Founders started this country pretty far right of center.They struck a delicate balance of "law and liberty".
As progressive ( left of center) ideas crept in, liberty lessened.

I am a Constitutionalist, really a Declarationalist.

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Hunterdave wrote:

All political thought and issues fall on a plane , either center, left of center or right of center. You may not be able to pinpoint where you fall as a whole on that plane,
but each position you hold falls on that plane.

Classic liberal falls right of center, without a doubt. Our Founders started this country pretty far right of center.They struck a delicate balance of "law and liberty".
As progressive ( left of center) ideas crept in, liberty lessened.

I am a Constitutionalist, really a Declarationalist.

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One could design (and some have designed) a paradigm with two variables, either two kinds of Liberty or Liberty and some other variable, meaning political systems could be plotted on a plane.

One could even use three variables, making a space. Or four variables, making something impossible to draw and hard to conceive.

Since, to me, Liberty is the variable by which political systems should be judged, I use a one-dimensional spectrum. The type of Liberty that government would restrict is not the problem. It is how much.

So, on this one-dimensional spectrum, on the left, I place fascism, communism, and any form of totalitarianism. On the other side is anarchy--where your neighbor is free to kill you, unless you kill him first. Near the middle, tending right, I would place our system as our Founders envisioned it. We had the Liberties that we needed to thrive, with the right amount of government to cut into the nasty things we would do to each other.

Unfortunately, The US has moved scarily to the left on this one-dimensional spectrum, giving up Liberty to assuage some of our worries, like health-care.

I think that multi-dimensional spectra only serve to take our eye off the ball. Liberty is the key variable in judging governments.

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The linear line is flawed in trying to describe liberty and tyranny left and righ .I instead think of liberty on the (right) anarchy being far far right, and the so called conservatives and democrats on paths that have branched off from each other but both heading left toward tyranny. And they falsely want us to believe we need to be moderate or in the middle of their beliefs. The repubes being on the right is only in relative to how far both parties have moved so far to the left.

I think someone needs to relearn some history, it wasn't democrats who accomplished all the things that have been claimed.

The majority of politicians who have pushed and currently strive for stricter gun control typically have a (D) after their name. So have course many gun owners take a more negative approach to that party, just like most pro abortion folks dislike the R party because more politicians opposed to abortion have an (R) after their name.

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

The linear line is flawed in trying to describe liberty and tyranny left and righ .I instead think of liberty on the (right) anarchy being far far right, and the so called conservatives and democrats on paths that have branched off from each other but both heading left toward tyranny. And they falsely want us to believe we need to be moderate or in the middle of their beliefs. The repubes being on the right is only in relative to how far both parties have moved so far to the left.

I think someone needs to relearn some history, it wasn't democrats who accomplished all the things that have been claimed.

The majority of politicians who have pushed and currently strive for stricter gun control typically have a (D) after their name. So have course many gun owners take a more negative approach to that party, just like most pro abortion folks dislike the R party because more politicians opposed to abortion have an (R) after their name.

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The line is not flawed, the people are. We were speaking of political philosophy in
terms of left and right,not party philosophy and where liberty falls on that line.In
all examples of history, liberty blossoms when the government anchors itself right
of center.

I agree that the many of the "R"s have moved left to center and the "D"s so far left,
that liberty left to them is but a faint light in the distance.(as evidenced by the current
administration)

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Hunterdave wrote:

All political thought and issues fall on a plane , either center, left of center or right of center.  You may not be able to pinpoint where you fall as a whole on that plane,
but each position you hold falls on that plane.

  Classic liberal falls right of center, without a doubt. Our Founders started this country pretty far right of center.They struck a delicate balance of "law and liberty".
As progressive ( left of center) ideas crept in, liberty lessened.

I am a Constitutionalist, really a Declarationalist.

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The problem here is that your "right" and "left" are entirely arbitrary, and their definitions are not agreed upon by anybody.

Eye95's single-variable scale is interesting, although we tend to reach different conclusions from our consideration of "liberty".

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No offense intended, but you're all missing the point.

The current political situation is very much like those World Wrestling programs on TV. You've got two guys threatening each other with mayhem, stomping each other in the ring (fake, of course), and then going out for beers together while they laugh at the dopes who paid admission.

IOW, it's a game. There is only one party, and there is only one winner - them. We, the people, are the losers.

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That line of thinking is what gave us the folks who gave us rampant federal spending (far worse increases than ever before in history) and the Liberty-killer known as health care reform. There is a difference between the parties. While neither is Liberty-loving enough, one is far more Liberty-loving than the other.

The task before us is to restore the Liberty-loving to power using the same technique that put the Liberty-restricting into power. By becoming a majority in the majority party, a minority of Liberty-restricters has acquired the power to impose itself on us. To wrest power back for the people, Liberty-lovers need only acquire a majority in the other party as it returns to the majority.

Vote for and support the most Liberty-loving candidates in the primaries (regardless of incumbency). Vote for the most Liberty-loving candidates in the general election (regardless of whether they are as Liberty-loving as you; they are better than the less Liberty-loving candidate).

Work to move the whole Congress toward the Liberty-loving side of the spectrum--even just a little. We can move it more later.

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double tap

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eye95 wrote:

That line of thinking is what gave us the folks who gave us rampant federal spending (far worse increases than ever before in history) and the Liberty-killer known as health care reform. There is a difference between the parties. While neither is Liberty-loving enough, one is far more Liberty-loving than the other.

The task before us is to restore the Liberty-loving to power using the same technique that put the Liberty-restricting into power. By becoming a majority in the majority party, a minority of Liberty-restricters has acquired the power to impose itself on us. To wrest power back for the people, Liberty-lovers need only acquire a majority in the other party as it returns to the majority.

Vote for and support the most Liberty-loving candidates in the primaries (regardless of incumbency). Vote for the most Liberty-loving candidates in the general election (regardless of whether they are as Liberty-loving as you; they are better than the less Liberty-loving candidate).

Work to move the whole Congress toward the Liberty-loving side of the spectrum--even just a little. We can move it more later.

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This. And extreme pressure on the most Liberty-loving party to nominate the most
Liberty-loving candidates possible.

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That is why Ron Paul, and now the TEA Parties are popular with the people but dispised by statist on both the so called right and left, they are trying to pull government back towardthe right direction.

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eye95 wrote:

That line of thinking is what gave us the folks who gave us rampant federal spending (far worse increases than ever before in history) and the Liberty-killer known as health care reform.  There is a difference between the parties.  While neither is Liberty-loving enough, one is far more Liberty-loving than the other.

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So, you do vote libertarian?