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Thread: Questions On Being Disarmed While OCing

  1. #1
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    First, I am not a troll but this is my first post as I am new to the board.

    I couldn't really find a better location to post this so I just picked General Discussion.

    I have been reading alot about Open Carry on other forums and wanted to learn more about why people believe it is or is not a good idea so I have been reading some threads.

    I don't want to get into a debate over CCing or OCing but I do have a few questions which I would be concerned about if I was allowed to OC in SC.

    What would happen if someone snuck up behind you and tried to disarm you while OCing and you shot them?

    Do you have every legal right to fire at themeven if you do not know theyhave aweapon?

    I know that some states, including SC,will only legally allow you to shoot someone if you believe they will cause you or someone else severe bodily harm, dismemberment, or death.

    Does the possibility that an attacker may use your own weapon to harm or kill you, someone you are with, or innocent bystanders legally stand up to the definition of proper use of deadly force?

    Would you be liable if someone did disarm you and used your weapon to injure or kill someone else?

    I know that someone can just as easily get a concealed firearm away from you and you are not going to stop and make sure that an attacker is armed either way but they would not necessarilybe going directly for the gun if it was properly concealed compared to if you were targeted specifically because you had a firearm visible while OCing.

    Personally I would be on edge while OCing even if I had training on stopping someone from disarming me and had a holster that had some type of retention device like a Serpa or something similar that officers use.

    I know that officers have a higher percentage rate ofbeingdisarmed since they are more likely to deal with criminals on a daily basis but I would still be concerned with the possibilty no matter how slim.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
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    I would advise only drawing your weapon on them and or using hand to hand defense. However if they persist upon trying to disarm you or assualt you and you have reasonable feelings of imminent injury or death then I would use lethal force.

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    You cannot compare a LEOs carrying to OC as LEO confront criminals, have them
    boxed in. That's when any struggle over their weapon occurs. Criminals don't just run up out of the blue an try to wrestle their weapon away. A BG while looking for prey,
    if he has any gray matter at all, will reject anyone armed and pick the most helpless
    he can find.
    A hypothetical; if you had to cross a field as a matter of life and death, and on that field you had to fight one of four people, a man with bare fist, a man with a stick, a man a knife, a man with firearm. Which would you choose? Obvious right? A criminal
    comes to the same conclusion. He's gonna pick the easiest target he can find.
    As to SC law , I cannot speak, but her in Louisiana,I believe that if a BG tried to
    wrestle your weapon away and got shot in the process, well a BG just got his
    comeuppance, unless you shot him in the back while running away.

    Just my opinion. IANAL

  4. #4
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Before we address ANY of your questions, it would be VERY helpful if you put your location on your profile, Laws vary widely from state to state, and it's nearly impossible to give a thoughtful answer to ANY gun-law question if we don't know what state you're writing from...

    But you mentioned SC, so lets start there.

    In SC, open carry is not legal in most public places, period. Even if you have an SC CWP.

    http://www.usacarry.com/south_caroli...formation.html


    Now, on to your remark about Police getting disarmed. This almost ALWAYS occurs during a struggle, when an LEO is attempting to subdue or apprehend someone who doesn't want to be arrested.

    To my knowledge, there is not a SINGLE recorded incident of an OCer having their firearm grabbed by a criminal.

    The only people on record who take handguns from law-abiding OCers without their consent are police officers...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Before we address ANY of your questions, it would be VERY helpful if you put your location on your profile, Laws vary widely from state to state, and it's nearly impossible to give a thoughtful answer to ANY gun-law question if we don't know what state you're writing from...

    But you mentioned SC, so lets start there.

    In SC, open carry is not legal in most public places, period. Even if you have an SC CWP.

    http://www.usacarry.com/south_caroli...formation.html


    Now, on to your remark about Police getting disarmed. This almost ALWAYS occurs during a struggle, when an LEO is attempting to subdue or apprehend someone who doesn't want to be arrested.

    To my knowledge, there is not a SINGLE recorded incident of an OCer having their firearm grabbed by a criminal.

    The only people on record who take handguns from law-abiding OCers without their consent are police officers...
    I updated my profile so now my location is there.

    I did state that I was in SC and I am not currently allowed to OC but I know you may have missed it in my post.

    I figured most people would jump all over the fact that you will most likely not get targeted by a criminal because you are OCing and not really focus on my questions.

    I think using the rationale that it only happens to cops, most criminals are chicken ***** (which is mostly true), andthere is no recorded event of it ever happening or unlikely is being kind of oblivious to the possibility and ramifications if it did happen.

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    Scalce wrote:
    andthere is no recorded event of it ever happening or unlikely is being kind of oblivious to the possibility and ramifications if it did happen.
    The road to hell is paved with what-ifs.

    The possibility exists but the probability is so slim that it has notoriously not yet happened. The ramifications are thus anile imaginary hypothetical and hysterical.

    Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances. I use a SERPA for OC.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    Before we address ANY of your questions, it would be VERY helpful if you put your location on your profile, Laws vary widely from state to state, and it's nearly impossible to give a thoughtful answer to ANY gun-law question if we don't know what state you're writing from...

    But you mentioned SC, so lets start there.

    In SC, open carry is not legal in most public places, period. Even if you have an SC CWP.

    http://www.usacarry.com/south_caroli...formation.html


    Now, on to your remark about Police getting disarmed. This almost ALWAYS occurs during a struggle, when an LEO is attempting to subdue or apprehend someone who doesn't want to be arrested.

    To my knowledge, there is not a SINGLE recorded incident of an OCer having their firearm grabbed by a criminal.

    The only people on record who take handguns from law-abiding OCers without their consent are police officers...
    Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him. There seems to be some more info about this along the lines that the guy was not practicing good awareness and may have purposely entered areas where there was a chance of an encounter. However, I am not that familiar with the details.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
    The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

    Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

    Personal attack deleted

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    We are not talking about pigs flying here.

    With the number of OCers increasing I would say that the probability of someone getting their firearm taken away also increases.

    I am not criticizing OCing but some proponents obviously jump on anyone who brings up questions or concerns with anything surrounding OC.

    I guess I will keep my "anile imaginary hypothetical and hysterical" thoughts to myself and let the more realistic people keep living in their dream world.

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    Hey, sounds good to me. You might join Grass Roots Gun Rights South Carolina @ http://www.scfirearms.org

    Personal attack deleted Present company excepted.

  11. #11
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
    The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

    Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

    Personal attack deleted
    Ask and ye shall receive.

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm

    (Personal attack deleted better be deleted)

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
    The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

    Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

    Personal attack deleted
    Ask and ye shall receive.

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm

    (Personal attack deleted better be deleted)

    I did not ask and I don't care, others may.

    Personal attack deleted Present company excepted.

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    SouthernBoy wrote: I may be incorrect, I often am, but as I recall from reading on this forum the situation didn't occur as originally reported.

    I seem to remember that this individual did in fact call the cops about having his gun stolen, but as it turns out he fabricated the whole thing in hopes of getting an insurance payout for a gun that he had lostor damaged. I do not however have any documentation to back that up.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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    My suggestion if you are able is to meet up with some OC'ers in a neighboring state where it is legal.

    You don't have to OC but having a cup of coffee or getting a bite to eat with others OCing you will see almost immediately that there really is nothing to it.

    Every self defense situation is different, and you just have to use good judgement especially when it comes to lethal force. A crazed 300 pound 6'5'' man trying to take my gun vs. a 90 pound hippy lady I can foresee different outcomes for those scenarios.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    My suggestion if you are able is to meet up with some OC'ers in a neighboring state where it is legal.

    You don't have to OC but having a cup of coffee or getting a bite to eat with others OCing you will see almost immediately that there really is nothing to it.

    Every self defense situation is different, and you just have to use good judgement especially when it comes to lethal force. A crazed 300 pound 6'5'' man trying to take my gun vs. a 90 pound hippy lady I can foresee different outcomes for those scenarios.
    hey, I am 6'6" 300 pounds , I use a Serpa retention holster...Lot's of luck getting my gun
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Use 100% protection. Strap the holster securely to your Belt. A simply clip pocket holster doesn't mechanically secure. Once you are mechanically secure to your person you need to mechanically secure your pistol. A preformed holster that Fits your pistol indeed keeps it in place, but you need better. Get a holster with a strap that comes over the rear of your pistol and snaps together snug. Adjust the straps so that the snap Faces your body. That way nobody can get the pistol out of the holster and the only release is between the pistol and your side. The bad guy will try but will not succeed before you are able to reply. Due to your situational awareness- you only have to secure your pistol for about .30 milliseconds before I'm sure you'll have a knee or a fist in there somewhere.

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
    The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

    Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

    Personal attack deleted
    Ask and ye shall receive.

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm

    (Personal attack deleted better be deleted)

    I did not ask and I don't care, others may.

    Personal attack deleted Present company excepted.
    Hey, you know I'm just playin' with ya'. No malice intended.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    I thank you guys for the posts that actually try to address my concerns and questions politely.

    I am dissapointed in the attitude that some members have towards other gun lovers who are just trying to understand the OC movement and what it stands for.

    I think part of that defensive attitude is what has been putting alot of people off.

    We need all gun owners to work together.

    I'll keep reading here and learning though.

    Keep fighting for what you believe in.

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    ...... will only legally allow you to shoot someone if you believe they will cause you or someone else severe bodily harm, dismemberment, or death......

    I would say if they are grabbing for your firearm they are trying to cause you "severe bodily harm".

    I usually carry an open-assisted blade clipped in my front pocket which someone may catch in their forearm. (at least I hope I could react that fast). If not, more likely turn toward them with an elbow.

    You would have a serious problem with the law that you may or may not be able to overcome.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him. There seems to be some more info about this along the lines that the guy was not practicing good awareness and may have purposely entered areas where there was a chance of an encounter. However, I am not that familiar with the details.
    You're speaking of this incident which occurred in 2006, I presume:

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm


    As it turns out, this was a false report, and the fellow in fact, was later found by FCPD to have the gun in his house hidden in a drawer. This has been verified by several OCDO members who live in FFX County and have spoken with FCPD on this issue.

    FCPD just never updated the report. I'm still looking for more info on this case. Fairfax County's website isn't very user-friendly, and it doesn't appear that there is any simple way to get to older, archived police reports...

    I have written an email to FCPD, to get the "official story" in writing, so we can post it, and OFFICIALLY put this myth to rest...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
    The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

    Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

    Personal attack deleted
    Ask and ye shall receive.

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm

    (Personal attack deleted better be deleted)

    That was not so much a "snatch" as it was an armed robbery. I don't want to speak for whoever issued the challenge, but I would limit the challenge to someone opportunistically removing the weapon. An armed robbery, with a gun to the back of the head would have the same effect on an OCer or a CCer.

    The argument against OC is that the OCed weapon is at risk because it is easily accessible to someone who would grab and go. That did not happen in this instance.

  22. #22
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    Scalce wrote:
    I thank you guys for the posts that actually try to address my concerns and questions politely.

    I am dissapointed in the attitude that some members have towards other gun lovers who are just trying to understand the OC movement and what it stands for.

    I think part of that defensive attitude is what has been putting alot of people off.

    We need all gun owners to work together.

    I'll keep reading here and learning though.

    Keep fighting for what you believe in.
    I think it's great when folks come here with a genuine curiosity about OC. I regret that some of the reactions you have received have been off-putting. Please don't judge the whole site by those reactions.

    Welcome aboard.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    That was not so much a "snatch" as it was an armed robbery. I don't want to speak for whoever issued the challenge, but I would limit the challenge to someone opportunistically removing the weapon. An armed robbery, with a gun to the back of the head would have the same effect on an OCer or a CCer.
    Not so much an "armed robbery" as it was a "false report". This incident gets trotted out EVERY time someone poses the "what if someone tries to grab your gun" argument, and EVERY time, people who live in that area (like me) try to dispel this myth.

    But because FCPD never removed or amended the original report, people keep presenting this report as it if actually happened. It didn't. The guy made a false report.

    More information to come soon, I hope...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  24. #24
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    Interesting stuff. Most if not all OC'ers are going to at least think about this and it really is an important topic even if it is extremely unlikely to the point of absurdity. Its one that is used to argue against us time and time again.

    Scalce, without meaning any disrespect to your question, its just that it happens to be about a topic that is used very often to paint a broad picture of danger about OC that has virtually no evidence to back it up. Anti gun activists propagate this fear that most of us feel is unjustifed that the threat of OC'ers losing control of their weapon to a bad guy is enough of a public safety hazard to prohibit us from carrying openly. Again, this explanation isn't aimed in any personal way towards you or your question, I just want to explain a little bit as to where some angst may come from.

    I've thought about this question alot, as have many other OC'ers. We take a big responsibility on ourselves being armed with deadly force out in public.

    Even if there isn't data to show it, I will admit I have a little bit of fear of that scenario playing out especially with my wife carrying while shes alone. I think she could be ambushed from behind and incapacitated if a bad guy wanted her weapon. Actually, with a brick smashing into the back of my head, the same could be true for me as well.

    I don't think it would happen because someone wants my wallet. If my wallet is what they are after, then they will go to the much softerand less deadly target. You may hear of LEOs losing their gun but you never hear of LEOs losing their wallet. If someone were to take my gun, it would be strictly to take my gun. They would have to be a lunatic to try something like that, but there are lunatics that walk amongst us. Still, I would never concede in general that the fear justifies a prohibition on open carry.



    In my state, you can defend yourself with lethal force: RsMO 563.031.

    2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:


    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or herself or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony;

    That right there says enough for me. Physically trying to manhandle my gun from me, means I can shoot you for it.

    Now, another very important rule is that the burden of proof to justify the shooting, will land squarely on my head. If I am charged with the assault, manslaugther or murder of that individual, I will have to prove my innocence by proving I was justified.

    5. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

    That right there is enough to make me hesitate should I get the draw on the attacker. It sucks but its true. I may have to stop and think if I can actually get out of the situation without firing and that right there puts me in harms way. I can end up in prison with a life sentence, I can end up just losing my firearm, I can end up losing my life. I will take precaution first with my life but still if its just him and me and no neutral witness or one favorable to me, I gotta try to avoid killing this person as much as possible if he is unarmed.

    The main thing though is that we can "what if" it to death. We can think of fictional scenarios and how they might turn out which I feel is constructive. Each situation is its own with so many contributing factors that its really impossible to play out any hypothetical for sure.


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    Dreamer wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    That was not so much a "snatch" as it was an armed robbery. I don't want to speak for whoever issued the challenge, but I would limit the challenge to someone opportunistically removing the weapon. An armed robbery, with a gun to the back of the head would have the same effect on an OCer or a CCer.
    Not so much an "armed robbery" as it was a "false report". This incident gets trotted out EVERY time someone poses the "what if someone tries to grab your gun" argument, and EVERY time, people who live in that area (like me) try to dispel this myth.

    But because FCPD never removed or amended the original report, people keep presenting this report as it if actually happened. It didn't. The guy made a false report.

    More information to come soon, I hope...
    By all means, please post support as soon as possible. I'd rather the report were false (so it will get cited less often). However, if true, it still isn't a "grab."

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